Who said it was a good idea to make peace with al-Sadr

[Crumpp]

Storch,

Your absolutely right.  However do not confuse what I am saying.

"Artificial State" is a state department term and denotes a country created on a map by treaty.  It refers to boarders and not cultures.

Example - Before 1918 Poland as a country did not exist on any map.  After the end of WWI Poland was created.  The boundaries of that country did not exist prior.  In other words it did not simply change names or fragment an existing territory.  New boarders were drawn and a whole new country created.
 
Crumpp

[straffo]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Storch,

Your absolutely right.  However do not confuse what I am saying.

"Artificial State" is a state department term and denotes a country created on a map by treaty.  It refers to boarders and not cultures.

Example - Before 1918 Poland as a country did not exist on any map.  After the end of WWI Poland was created.  The boundaries of that country did not exist prior.  In other words it did not simply change names or fragment an existing territory.  New boarders were drawn and a whole new country created.
 
Crumpp

It would be better to write : between 1815 and 1918 there was not polish state.

[Crumpp]

I'm sorry Straffo,

Poland did not exist as an Independant country until after 1918.  Again you are confusing a cultural boundry with a political one.  

Crumpp

[straffo]

I disagree
see here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Poland

Before 1918 there was a polish state during the Napoleonic war and some trial to make one in about 1860 (don't remember exactly)

if you prefer there was a Poland before the  3 partition between Austria, Russia and Prussia

[Crumpp]

.The Duchy of Krakow is not the country of Poland.  It is interesting that French History relates Poland as an Independent country during the Napoleonic era.  On this side of the Atlantic we have it as a subject province of the Napoleonic Empire. If you examine the borders during the time period you are considering you will see they are NOT the same borders of Poland.


Not an attack, just curious.  Does French History relate Vichy France as an Independent Country allied with Nazi Germany?  I suppose that is a valid view due to the fact England hand to pull a "Pearl Harbor" to keep the French from making the Axis Navy Surface fleet as strong as the Royal Navy.  The first combat US Army Forces experienced was with French Forces in Operation Torch.

From the link you provided.  I don't think the Poles considered themselves and Independent country until 1918.

Over the past millennium, the territory ruled by Poland has shifted and varied greatly. At one time, in the 16th century, Poland was the second largest state in Europe, after Russia. At other times there was no separate Polish state at all. Poland regained its independence in 1918, after more than a century of rule by its neighbors.

Again you are confusing cultural boundaries with political ones.
Poland did not exist as a Country until 1918 when the Map of Europe was redrawn to incorporate it's boundaries by treaty.  Names were not just changes but new borders created.  Hence the term "Artificial State".

Crumpp

[straffo]

Originally posted by Crumpp
.The Duchy of Krakow is not the country of Poland.  It is interesting that French History relates Poland as an Independent country during the Napoleonic era.  On this side of the Atlantic we have it as a subject province of the Napoleonic Empire. If you examine the borders during the time period you are considering you will see they are NOT the same borders of Poland.
 

It's my own interpretation
Being half polish it how in my familly see this,and how my grand father teached me.

 

Not an attack, just curious.  Does French History relate Vichy France as an Independent Country allied with Nazi Germany?  I suppose that is a valid view due to the fact England hand to pull a "Pearl Harbor" to keep the French from making the Axis Navy Surface fleet as strong as the Royal Navy.  The first combat US Army Forces experienced was with French Forces in Operation Torch. [/B]

Sorry ,but I don't see the point here ?
You try to hit a nerve ?

 

From the link you provided.  I don't think the Poles considered themselves and Independent country until 1918. [/B]

Here you're completly right ... with an independant Poland we won't had to flee the Russians


 

Again you are confusing cultural boundaries with political ones.
Poland did not exist as a Country until 1918 when the Map of Europe was redrawn to incorporate it's boundaries by treaty.  Names were not just changes but new borders created.  Hence the term "Artificial State".

Crumpp [/B]

Only cultural ?
What existed during the Jagiellon period for example ?
I call this a state.

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Masherbrum,

I didn't know the Poles were treated so badly after WWII in Britain.  It's a shame we tried to appease the Soviet Union.  You would have thought the West learned something from Chamberlin.

Crumpp

Read "A Question of Honor" by Lynne Olson and Stanley Cloud.  It is about the 303 (Koscuiszko) Squadron.  One of the best WWII books I've read.  Also "Given Up for Dead" by Bill Sloan is another fantastic book.  It is about the stand on Wake Island (December 1941).

Karaya

[SLO]

Originally posted by NUKE
Palestine never existed.

neither did Israel

[Crumpp]

Straffo,

You attempting to argue with me over a US State Department Term which I have explained the meaning of for you.  

It fits the definition for both the formation of Poland and Israel.   The Link you posted was exactly were I got my information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Poland

Let me repost my reply to Storch.  Please reread it and try and understand it.  Perception defines your reality.  I am 100 percent sure that Polish perception, Palestinian perception, US perception, Israeli perception and French perception of world events may have some similarities they will also have their differences.

My question on French perception was a legitimate one and not a cheap swipe at France.   I was trying to get a view from French perception.  Perhaps France feels that the Duchy of Krakow was an independant country while the Poles felt they were subjects of the Napoleanic Empire.  Therefore the date of Polish independance is different in French History books than it is in other accounts. Much stranger things have been printed in History Books.

==============================================  

Storch,

Your absolutely right. However do not confuse what I am saying.

"Artificial State" is a state department term and denotes a country created on a map by treaty. It refers to boarders and not cultures.

Example - Before 1918 Poland as a country did not exist on any map. After the end of WWI Poland was created. The boundaries of that country did not exist prior. In other words it did not simply change names or fragment an existing territory. New boarders were drawn and a whole new country created.

==============================================

Crumpp

[flyingaround]

Originally posted by Momus--
Nice spin, you don't perhaps work for FLAME or perhaps one of the other Jewish-American "information" organisations do you?
 

Again, so what? How does this justify kicking people of their land , stealing their water and denying them any political rights?

ROFL FLAME.  I'm an Arab actually.  Always blew my mind when other Arabs would "invent" history.  My post was more re. the fact that "Palestine" was basically southern Syria, and "Palestinian" is not a refrence to an Arab.  Too many people try to give that term an Arab identity, which is totally false.

Kicking people off their land?  (sigh) so you are one of "those" huh?  So according to you, those four Arab countries did NOT attack Israel?  50,000,000 Arabs attacked 600,000 Jews and got trounced (50mil in ref. to the countries combined populations).  AND the Arabs had the military bases (given to them by the Brit's) and the Brit's hvy weapons they left behind.  YES the Jews are guilty of terrorism in that region before Israels independance.  MANY nasty things done on both sides.  Not what I was trying to convey.

At least the Jews have close to 3,000 years of histiory in the region, and their own identity.  No Arab claims "Palestine" as a homeland.  Well, they might now, but that claim is baseless.  It's "those" Arabs that give us a bad name.

Don't think I'm some pro-jew, anti-arab.  Being Arab mysel, quite the opposite, but like most "intellectual" Arabs (term used loosly re. me of course) I like to formulate opinions based on facts, as opposed to hype.

BUT TO BE CLEAR here, Palestine was NEVER an Arab state.  Palestinian did not ref. to an Arab.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by SLO
well....for your information it was not the Palestinians that declared WAR in '69....
 

Neither did the Israelis... I'd bet a case on it...

The Six Day War was in '67, Yom Kippur War was in 73...  

[Nash]

ding ding ding... took forever before someone finally hit it.

[SLO]

crap....fugged the date up.....so shot me for christ sake

[storch]

Originally posted by flyingaround
ROFL FLAME.  I'm an Arab actually.  Always blew my mind when other Arabs would "invent" history.  My post was more re. the fact that "Palestine" was basically southern Syria, and "Palestinian" is not a refrence to an Arab.  Too many people try to give that term an Arab identity, which is totally false.

Kicking people off their land?  (sigh) so you are one of "those" huh?  So according to you, those four Arab countries did NOT attack Israel?  50,000,000 Arabs attacked 600,000 Jews and got trounced (50mil in ref. to the countries combined populations).  AND the Arabs had the military bases (given to them by the Brit's) and the Brit's hvy weapons they left behind.  YES the Jews are guilty of terrorism in that region before Israels independance.  MANY nasty things done on both sides.  Not what I was trying to convey.

At least the Jews have close to 3,000 years of histiory in the region, and their own identity.  No Arab claims "Palestine" as a homeland.  Well, they might now, but that claim is baseless.  It's "those" Arabs that give us a bad name.

Don't think I'm some pro-jew, anti-arab.  Being Arab mysel, quite the opposite, but like most "intellectual" Arabs (term used loosly re. me of course) I like to formulate opinions based on facts, as opposed to hype.

BUT TO BE CLEAR here, Palestine was NEVER an Arab state.  Palestinian did not ref. to an Arab.

You sound like my friend Fahmi,  he makes the same claim. sometimes we have to leave places in a hurry.  

[Arlo]

Probably even allowed.