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Author Topic: Sailing Toward a Storm in China  (Read 2198 times)

Offline Boroda

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Sailing Toward a Storm in China
« Reply #60 on: July 16, 2004, 09:58:55 PM »
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Boroda, keep dreaming... your military couldn't get 12 aircraft into the air at one time... cripes, when are you going to stop trying to pretend that Russia is a bad arse, and accept that you live in a 2nd world nation....


12 aircraft? How about our Defence minister flying a Tu-160 from Saratov to Kamchatka and then to Vladovostok? A good show, 10000km flight, but at the same time our strategic bomber force working on test targets in Indian ocean near Diego-Garcia?...

Bodhi, we had more then 12 shturmoviks at the same time working on targets in Chechnya when it was nessesary...

Don't underestimate your... hmmm.... strategic partner ;)
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Offline Boroda

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« Reply #61 on: July 16, 2004, 10:02:25 PM »
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Originally posted by Lizking
No joke, my friend.  Your planes overflew a carrier group.  Not good, but not the end of the world.  We overflew your capitol, with near impunity, and still could.  Could you?


Damn, WHEN!? In the 40s?!?! Even then - I doubt it.

;)

Still could? Wanna test our SAM grid capabilities?

Or do you mean Matias Rust landing at the Red Square? I have some jokes about that to tell you ;)
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Offline Lizking

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« Reply #62 on: July 16, 2004, 10:09:52 PM »
No, we didn't have good enough satellites until the mid 1960s.  then we quit using planes for the overflights.  Got any Russkie sat photos of Washington at 3 meter rez?  1 meter?

I think our planes could penetrate your SAM web, destroying much or most of it in the process.  It would make for a good flight sim, Boroda, why don't you do one.
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Offline Boroda

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« Reply #63 on: July 16, 2004, 10:10:19 PM »
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
THE USSR IS NO MORE.....THERE IS NO WARTIME FOOTING....THEY WERE IN FRIENDLY WATERS!

To top it off THERE WERE NO "ENEMY" PLANES.

they were tracking the migs from take off!


Yeah. As my Military department teacher, Lt. Colonel Kargolin told us back in 1992: "Look, cadets: our strategic partners are still unable to fly at 40,000m, but we are ready to greet them there" ;)

Our countries are still enemies :( Or, to be frank, the US are the enemy of the whole world... :(

If you think that there were no "enemy planes" - then why was the US task force training less then 100nm from Vladivostok? Why did they perform recon missions aginst Russian bases in the Far East?

And: they couldn't track any MiGs from the take off. The planes that flew 60m ober Kittyhawk's flight deck were Sukhois ;)
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Offline Lizking

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« Reply #64 on: July 16, 2004, 10:14:48 PM »
On July 4, 1956, a U-2A out of Wiesbaden, Germany, overflew both Moscow and Leningrad--Operation Overflight became a reality. The CIA had hoped the U-2--with wings so long they reflected primarily high-frequency, rather than radar, waves--would prove immune not only to attack but to detection. But National Security Agency listening posts in Europe could track the plane's progress as measured by the activation of Soviet radar stations.

Unable to admit that American planes (conceivably carrying nuclear weapons) could overfly the motherland at will, Khrushchev did not publicize the incident.
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Offline demaw1

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« Reply #65 on: July 16, 2004, 10:17:22 PM »
Boroda please come down to earth....American teenagers are taught very little in school....what are they taught.....Girls are taught oral sex is not really sex[re.bill orilley and a former surgeon general under clinton she said this] how to put condoms on a banana in 7th grade...are you gay?.... susie has 2 mommys,in 6th grade...on and on...America has almost destoryed the innocents of youth.So u are way off base about what or kids are taught in school.
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Offline Lizking

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« Reply #66 on: July 16, 2004, 10:17:37 PM »
« Last Edit: July 16, 2004, 10:21:38 PM by Lizking »
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Offline Boroda

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« Reply #67 on: July 16, 2004, 10:25:58 PM »
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Originally posted by Lizking
No, we didn't have good enough satellites until the mid 1960s.  then we quit using planes for the overflights.  Got any Russkie sat photos of Washington at 3 meter rez?  1 meter?

I think our planes could penetrate your SAM web, destroying much or most of it in the process.  It would make for a good flight sim, Boroda, why don't you do one.


Liz, your hi-alt recon planes were not ready before Moscow had a complete ring of SAMs in late-40s. Your attempt to cross USSR from Iran to Urals and then to Arctic ocean failed on May 1st 1960 when your U2 was sho down by a single battery of S-75 SAM.

We had sattelites before you. We never tried to make aerial photos of DC, despite of the fact that your SAM experience including targeting and general tactics is non-existant (the only surface-air victory was an Iranian airliner, so my Uncle has a victory list longer then all American aircraft defence ;)).

You may think that your plane can penetrate our aircraft-defence system. Yes. Penetrate it only until the decision will be made to shoot it down. In case of massive attack a regional radio-technical troops observation officer could make an immediate decision to shoot your hordes of aerial gangsters, including usage of nuclear warheads against B-52 formations.

S-200 SAM, that I studied to be a technical department officer for, was targeted by Minutemen. I mean every S-200 brigade (yes, every unit was a brigade) was a first-rank target for your Minutemen missiles...

I hope that our current relations and the whole situation in the world made this things impossible, at least I hope so.
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Offline demaw1

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« Reply #68 on: July 16, 2004, 10:28:37 PM »
Nash,sorry I didnt make myself clear,my bad. I meant we will have to fight them in 15 years or so,China will do now what they believe will be best for china in 200 years.Their leaders have said this over and over.It has been in such left wing papers as n. y. times...l.a. times chicago trubune and even pbs radio.Just repeating,but am uneasy because I believe them, from their history.
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Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #69 on: July 16, 2004, 10:29:47 PM »
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Originally posted by demaw1
Bodhi,

 If you are talking about now ,I belive u are correct,If u mean in the future than sadly i think u are wrong.In ten but I think closer to 15 years unless we have come up with some amazing [defense/offence] weapons they will take us on.I believe them when their leaders say we will have war within 10 but I believe 15 years. The chinese are a much differant kind of people than others that have threaten us.When the time comes they will not care how much money we spend with them as they will not think what is best for china now,but what is best for china 200 years from now.To many of their leaders have said this and more.I was never afraid of what russia would do,I am afriad of what china will do aspecially if we act toward them as we did russia.
  respectfully demaw.


demaw, realistically think about what you just said.  Why in the world would China waste teh time and effort to attack us when, if like you say, they are willing to wait 200 years,  we will tear ourself apart in the next 75.  The Chinese are not  stupid, an attack now would only ensure their destruction, and an attack in 15 years would only end in mass destruction on both sides.  Meanwhile, our domestic defense gets stronger, and theirs, well... that war would only make China unlivable...
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Offline Lizking

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« Reply #70 on: July 16, 2004, 10:32:28 PM »
Boroda, understand me.  I do not denigrate Russian technology or the will of the people.   You must understand, however, that when you starting laying your weinie on the table for comparison, then facts count louder than propaganda.

Are you saying that we did not overfly Moscow?  Multiple times?  Are you saying that the USSR did not WANT hi rez photos of washington DC?
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Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #71 on: July 16, 2004, 10:35:08 PM »
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Originally posted by Boroda
12 aircraft? How about our Defence minister flying a Tu-160 from Saratov to Kamchatka and then to Vladovostok? A good show, 10000km flight, but at the same time our strategic bomber force working on test targets in Indian ocean near Diego-Garcia?...

Bodhi, we had more then 12 shturmoviks at the same time working on targets in Chechnya when it was nessesary...

Don't underestimate your... hmmm.... strategic partner ;)


Boroda,

B2's routinely fly from Missouri to Afganistan, a round trip of over 20000 miles, non stop... in flight refueling the whole way...

Do you honestly think your nation could support massive combat ops on the scale necessary to fight the US?  Get real, you can not, we can not, no one can afford to fight a conventional world war anymore, which means that unconventional war is where it will head.  Now, do you want to test the accuracies and response time of your ICBM's versus ours?  Right now, 8 subs are at sea with in striking distance of your entire country... care to take a guess as to how many of yours are in the same position?  Care to take a guess on the maintenance of your land based weapons?  Come on, you are not an idiot, fighting us will only end in your destruction... which, is reality is destruction for all.
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Offline Boroda

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« Reply #72 on: July 16, 2004, 10:43:59 PM »
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Originally posted by Lizking
On July 4, 1956, a U-2A out of Wiesbaden, Germany, overflew both Moscow and Leningrad--Operation Overflight became a reality. The CIA had hoped the U-2--with wings so long they reflected primarily high-frequency, rather than radar, waves--would prove immune not only to attack but to detection. But National Security Agency listening posts in Europe could track the plane's progress as measured by the activation of Soviet radar stations.

Unable to admit that American planes (conceivably carrying nuclear weapons) could overfly the motherland at will, Khrushchev did not publicize the incident.


This could happen, but in 1956 USSR already had the first ring of SAM defence around Moscow already operational (S-25 vertical start missiles). OTOH the first successfull surface-air missile kill was achieved in 1959 over China...

In 1956 Khruschev already had R-7 intercontinentional missile ("Sputnik") that was capable to deliver a hydrogen warhead to any desired point at the US...

I bet we shot down more U2s then you shot any Soviet aircraft combined by your SAMs ;)

Sorry, I am getting really drunk now, it's 07:30 noe here in Moscow - so please give me a break ;)

Keyhole images are declassified, but our Kosmos data are probably still not. The picture of a center of Moscow (it's maybe 1/16th of a current city size) looks like it was made not in 79 but 69 (No "Belgrade" hotel built around 75 etc). Or maybe I just can't see it because i'm already drunk %-]
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Offline Lizking

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« Reply #73 on: July 16, 2004, 10:45:48 PM »
Boroda, hae you ever played the old game "Flight of the old Dog"?  or read the book?
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Offline Boroda

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« Reply #74 on: July 16, 2004, 10:54:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bodhi
Boroda,

B2's routinely fly from Missouri to Afganistan, a round trip of over 20000 miles, non stop... in flight refueling the whole way...

Do you honestly think your nation could support massive combat ops on the scale necessary to fight the US?  Get real, you can not, we can not, no one can afford to fight a conventional world war anymore, which means that unconventional war is where it will head.  Now, do you want to test the accuracies and response time of your ICBM's versus ours?  Right now, 8 subs are at sea with in striking distance of your entire country... care to take a guess as to how many of yours are in the same position?  Care to take a guess on the maintenance of your land based weapons?  Come on, you are not an idiot, fighting us will only end in your destruction... which, is reality is destruction for all.


Bodhi, you say exactly what I mean. Conventional war is impossible. In "non-conventional" war there will be no winners.  Anyone who will want to test capabilities of Russian or American ICBMs must be crazy. I don't know how much Russian subs are in White Sea now at launch positions now - and I only know it's enough to ensure MAD...

I have said many times in this thread that I don't want any war. Russian military doctrine is now based on pre-emptive nuclear strike. Yes, I am not an idiot. At least I hope so. I really hate "blue" side coming closer and making base in Estonia, 5min of flight for tactical aviation to SPb... Do you think you need to disturb a bear? You are not an idiot too. Let's live together and let others live.

Sorry.
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