You guys just don't get it

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by 33Vortex
Advanced ACM in both the horizontal and vertical plane. Are there any good online sources available where ACM is illustrated.?

33Vortex,  take a look at this thread in the help & training forum Understanding BFM vs. ACM

BFMs ( Basic Flight Manuevers ) are , aileron roll, barrell roll, hi yo-yo, low yo-yo, immelman, split-s, zoom climb ( No G/Load climb ), snap roll, to name a few.....
ACM ( Air Combat Manuevering ) is the ability to switch these BFMs up on a seconds notice as the fight negates. ACM is something that can be taught basically to a degree but to become better at it takes practice and much to do with how much time an individual puts into it and the desire he has to learn/get experience in the seat/cockpit.
SA ( Situational Awareness ) plays the biggest roll of all, and is where one should start before he gets his foot planted to firmly on the rudder pedal.

One can learn a specific tactic for a given move/merge but every merge is not the same, there is always some small part that will be different, this is where you need to focus, and adapt your BFMs to the given situation, this in itself is ACM.

[Simaril]

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Simaril was trying to say that the ones that whine about all the spits, nikis, La's. 51s flying should step up and help these particular flyers out in learning other aircraft instead of whining about it, because he thinks they have not learned the ins and outs of other planes.....
____

now I would like to ask the question back to Simaril, what are you doing?

Thanks, tequila, for putting it so well. That's the gist of whta I was trying to say.

To answer your question, I do what I can. Like amny who've posted, I've taken people to DA or TA to give starter courses. When I see an obvious newbie question on CH200, I'll answer and then PM the guy to ask if he wants to work on something.

I've had a couple times, usually with more mature players, where they've taken me up on it. I thoroughly enjoyed those times, both because I get a kick out of teaching and because I know I've cut months off the guy's learning curve. Picking up bombing techniques, learning the concept of aircraft energy management, knowing how to approach a formation of bombers to minimize danger -- all stuff I learned the hard way.

More often than not, though, the PM doesnt get answered, or the guy goes off to randomly bounce around the MA. That's fine for him, but I've done my part for the community.

What still ticks me off -- and what prompted the post -- is that I still consistantly see the dismissive attitude from experienced players. "Go read the help file." "Go to the TA." The vets who think that way are only hurting themselves, because HTC's resources are tied to subscribers, which is tied to player retention more than enlistment.  

Now obviously many of the people who have posted are willing teachers already. I say, great, and keep up the good work.

But these boards are filled with 2 common attititudes -- whines about "dweeb planes" (and the many plans for changing the mix to the TnB's taste), and dismissive comments about other people's skills.

I just wanted those others folks to realize that the two attitudes aren't compatible, and whining rather than teaching means more "dweebs" out there to complain about.

[lazs2]

u guys are making too much of it... a well flown late war plane will allways best an equally well flown early or mid wart one.  

The guys who fly late war planes know this and try to obscure the subject... you are getting your advantage by clicking on a plane in the hanger.

No?   Perhaps I am wrong and HT is mistaken on the planes that he perks?

Look... you late war guys pick em cause they have a big advantage before you even take off... you can also get away it the situation is bad if you use even moderate SA.  

Even if you are a crappy late war stick you are annoying to the fighters.  

The fast late war planes don't belong in the same fight as the early and mid war ones.   They have too much of an advantage and ruin the gameplay too much.

lazs

[phookat]

Originally posted by lazs2
The fast late war planes don't belong in the same fight as the early and mid war ones.   They have too much of an advantage and ruin the gameplay too much.

I can't tell if you're joking, but if not...

What part of the gameplay do they ruin?  Variety is good, and adds to the fun.  Didn't figure you for the type that would complain about what other people fly in a furball...

[beet1e]

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
you got to have the desire/drive/wanna to learn everything you can...and it takes months/years/decades to get there depending on how far you take it.

Well, you're not wrong, but you're leaving a lot out. Months/Years/decades to learn what? One thing I have learned as one release gives way to the next is that all these games are merely an interpretation of WW2 and the skills needed to fly fighter planes. But as we have seen, games differ from one another. Thw WB 190D9 was nothing like the 190D9 in AH. And in one of the other games (AW?) I heard that a 190A8 can turn with a Spit.  

When people become great sticks in a game like AH1, it means nothing more than the fact that they have learned the techniques, foibles, and idiosyncracies of a particular release of a particular game. Just look at AH1: So many people got their scores/ranks etc. by means of a plethora of gamey tricks. The N1K helicopter and the 800yd vertical spray shots spring to mind. But oh - in AH2, these are a thing of the past, and whatever was learned must now be unlearned! Small wonder, then, that we had such a whinefest and account cancellationfest when AH2 was deployed. Just to make the point, we had one guy, Steve, who did brilliantly in AH1, but come AH2 he cancelled his account!! Why would that have been then, other than AH1 tricks not working in AH2? (Sorry to have to use this to make a point, Steve - you can wring my neck later!)

So for this reason, I'll do what I've always done in these games, which has been to try to fly them according to WW2 accounts I've read, and not rely on gamey tricks. That is why I had no problems with the AH2 gunnery (I always got in close) and why the AH1 game-the-game doodz were crying in their beer. Sure, I'll get zapped by the GtG doodz as they learn new tricks. I'll take my lumps on that.

[phookat]

Originally posted by beet1e
So for this reason, I'll do what I've always done in these games, which has been to try to fly them according to WW2 accounts I've read, and not rely on gamey tricks. That is why I had no problems with the AH2 gunnery (I always got in close) and why the AH1 game-the-game doodz were crying in their beer. Sure, I'll get zapped by the GtG doodz as they learn new tricks. I'll take my lumps on that.

I think there's a middle ground here that you are not considering.  There are many skills you can have which don't depend on GtG, but which you cannot learn if you fly for safety's sake all the time (unless you are Erich Hartmann's grandson ).  We have a unique opportunity that even RL pilots don't have, to gain that skill.

What is the point of gaining this skill, you ask?  To have fun...same reason *all* of us are here, no matter who you are.  I've seen some posts where you say you are bored with the game.  I think this would liven it up for you.  Spend a few tours not caring about death.  Dive into disadvantageous situations, outnumbered situations.  Practice defensive manuvers and reversals.  Will be fun, and will get the heart pounding.  And in the end the kills you get and the times you survive will be more satisfying.

BTW, I defeinitely agree with you on the new gunnery.  So sick of the d1000 sn1p3rz.

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by beet1e
Well, you're not wrong, but you're leaving a lot out. Months/Years/decades to learn what?

Beetle,
I apologize for not making it clearer. I was explaining the people this topic is in discussion about need to have the desire/wanna ( as nopoop described it) to learn the advantages/weakness/manueverability of each individual plane. Learn SA, leanr how to judge a bogeys E state etc.........

It does not matter which game you played, the principles of BFM/ACM/ACT/SA are still there and used in all combat fighter sims. These principles are a must if you ever think of reaching for the top of the ladder.

SA = Situational Awareness
BFM = Basic Flight Manuevers
ACM = Air combat Manuevering
ACT = Air combat Tactics

to me this is the order of which one should learn and take each level in a way that he can learn the utmost from it that is possibly accessible.

As for those that as you mentioned game the game flyer bys, I have no answer for that or them, I guess they must find another way, if that is their forte

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by beet1e
And in one of the other games (AW?) I heard that a 190A8 can turn with a Spit.  
 

not sure about the Relaxed Realism arenas, I hardly ever flew them, but this did not happen in the Full Realsim Arenas, there was a brief period where the term, Spin Fighter came about, it was where you could do a controlled spin, and some of the 190A8 flyers used this spin manuever to outturn spits, it was nothing like actually doing turn and burn ( stall fighting ) They did try to fix the spin model, but still some were able to continue forth with trying to be spin fighters, most were shotdown trying it though

[Morpheus]

what are we doing here?

wtf ?!

[Mugzeee]

Originally posted by MoRphEuS
what are we doing here?

wtf ?!

Im not sure if it was intentional or not Morph.
But this repeated reply made me laugh so much...That even i have forgotten what this thread was about till i scrolled to the top!
PS..i believe the answer to your dilemma is in your signature  
Just do one or the other and you will be able to think clearly again.

[Murdr]

Originally posted by beet1e
And in one of the other games (AW?) I heard that a 190A8 can turn with a Spit.  

The best A8 pilots could use its superior roll rate to trick a spit, but it could not actually turn with it.

Isnt your gamey game the game line getting stale yet?

And since when did playing the game as designed become "gaming the game"?


HiTech [/B]

[NoBaddy]

Originally posted by beet1e
And in one of the other games (AW?) I heard that a 190A8 can turn with a Spit.  

 

Well, as one that flew the AW A8 for a number of years, it could outturn a spit....for about 250 degrees of the first turn IF the Fw driver made the spit driver think he was making a high speed pass and instead chopped and dumped flaps. Bottomline, if you didn't blow him away in the first 180 degrees...you had best be running like a lil gurl, because you were lunch meat.

[beet1e]

Phookat & Tequila -

I should clarify. Of course a lot of the skills from one game can be carried over into another. But techniques differ. Back in AH1 I would sometimes try roping a Spit or N1K in a 109, and they would sometimes be able to pull that helicopter crap and even blow my wing off with one of those 800yd vertical sprays. That no longer works in AH2, and I've whacked a few that have tried as they stalled out. Time was when it was dangerous to get within 800yds in any direction of some planes like SpitV/N1K. They could change direction very quickly and then spray like an unfixed male cat. So different techniques had to be used/learned. All I'm saying is that learning something by rote is not always applicable in a *game*.  When WB gunnery changed from 2.5 to the 2.7x releases (we don't talk about 2.6) 400yd shots no longer worked - you had to get to 200yds. Doing that without crashing, with iEN sucky connects meant relearning half the game.

AH2 has fixed a whole lot of the gamey crap that was ruining the game for me whilst being the raison d'être for others. As for my boredom with the game, that stems from two sources right now. [list=1]

• Permanent small maps, which I can't stand because of the mindless horde/ganbang/enforced furball gameplay they engender;
• Same old same old gameplay, with the SOSO guys flying the same 4-5 planes the whole time.

Of course, we've had guys saying that AH2 is "half the fun" of AH1. Their point of view seems to stem from the ease with which they could deploy their gamey 800yd spray shots and make stuff go BOOM in AH1. Those guys don't seek any form of WW2 realism/immersion - they just want a shooting gallery.

And AKFF said "The LA7 is very nimble, brutal acceleration, good guns package and great views.. The Pony is quite maneuverable, great guns package, lots of fuel, lots of jabo capabilities, fast... just an all around great ride.  With rides like that, why choose anything else???" Well, I'm happy for him, but that way of thinking, for me, represents everything that's wrong with AH gameplay. I don't fly the easymode überplanes, and it becomes tedious having to deal with them all the damn time. That doesn't mean I can't kill 'em. In T49 (last complete tour I played) I was 35/4 against lalas. But it just gets so boring. I want a WW2 war/flight sim where the gameplay has some sort of purpose. The crap we have now just doesn't hold my interest, hence only 6 hours of play for me this tour.

So no, I do NOT have the wanna/fire/ambition or whatever it was Nopoop called it.

[Xargos]

Is the Fw190-A5 a dweeb plane?  Hope not, I'm starting to test that one out now.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Xargos
Is the Fw190-A5 a dweeb plane?  Hope not, I'm starting to test that one out now.

Argos, no - the 190A5 is not a dweeb ride. Although if you look at the performance figures, it's the fastest climbing 190 of them all - at least in AH1 that was the case. Don't know about AH2.