Author Topic: so, you helped huh? (Warsaw Uprising)  (Read 7206 times)

Offline B17Skull12

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so, you helped huh? (Warsaw Uprising)
« Reply #150 on: August 04, 2004, 05:24:19 PM »
give me a few ill post division on eastern and western front just before DDay.  Got a book on it.
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Offline demaw1

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so, you helped huh? (Warsaw Uprising)
« Reply #151 on: August 04, 2004, 05:27:46 PM »
Anonymous.....taken to heart....

     I accept your criticism and after further analysis have changed my mind. I do ask ,if you have time, to read my last reply to wotan before this one, I do not think it will be a waste of time.

   You said he knew more than a little, and you are right, as a matter of fact he knows a lot more than that. I ask that you dont judge me until you have read this post and his.

       I dont remember the number of men on each front. Perhaps your numbers are right. I know the land battles in russia were massive, I just became angry at how, history was being revised.I felt an even handed approach to russias part was warranted. If you have read my other post, you will see how slanted most of what he says is. It is right out of the cold war, soviet union, hand book of misdirection, with solid truth,and  revisionist history thrown in. ....Example...

    His thesis on strategic bombing ,was well written. But look closely, what did it really say.1.  Richard overys book was wrong,which of course means genl Le Mays book, along with others are wrong.   Dont get me wrong all books contain mistakes or wrong deductions.  
     
       In a nut shell wotan was saying the bombing effert was misguided, accomplished  little, and the resources would have been better used else where..Why?Well wotan says... because that period was when the survival of russia hung in the balance...after reading my reply to wotan, reading what he said, can you see the pattern? We should have given the resources to russia.....russia would have defeated  hitler sooner blah blah.

    common sense time...
          The bombing succeed at least in this way.
   
  1. it tied up many fighter squadrens,that other wise would have been used against the allies and russia. I am sure russia would have liked that.

  2.because of this bombing factories were converted to fighter production only, no bombers..I am sure you know what that meant.

 3. thousands up on thousands of anti-aircraft guns of all calibers with crews, would have been released for use at the front. How do you think the avg. foot soldiers on both fronts would have liked that?

 4 the bombing interrupted ,oil...ballbearing..aircraft production...to what degree ,who cares?

      Ok he did say england was in danger in the middle east.
   That is what is called misdirection. Also he said.....the bombing campaign did not cause the defeat of germany....the honor of germanys defeat goes to the land campaigns fought by the allies.

    Look closely...both he and skull have said the war was won by russia on the ground.... you know he has said that, youve read it..this time he says allies, but that is misdirection, and because they have said it was russia every other time, most people, me included just pass over it, but russia is in our minds. Many people here will say the same about me they always do but I ask,  which one is it russia or allies. It does make a difference.

     Now here is the kicker, this post is not about bombing or fighting on the ground. It is about how bad America is and how good russia is. America made the wrong decisions, costing the lives of many russians and others. Remember the quotes from my post to wotan.? Add those to this ,what do you have.?.
     
  1.Russia won the war
  2Russia didnt need America would have beat hitler on her own.
  3Lend lease blah....a few trucks and some spam.
  4 America should thank russia for winning the war.

  Now if the bombing campaign was so wrong ,ask wotan why stalin sent several letters to roosevelt demanding more bombing runs on german production. Better yet ask him why stalin never asked but always demanded?

   The letters written to FDR. was part of a series on [You Were There]  Narreated by Walter Cronkite. The original letter was made availible by the library of the congress of the united states of america.
   Yes wotan is good, does he sound like a sub officer? As far as I know , those that ship out on subs are totally checked out. But maybe.

Offline demaw1

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so, you helped huh? (Warsaw Uprising)
« Reply #152 on: August 04, 2004, 05:51:02 PM »
Anonymous..........sucked in...

   Anonymous  I am so sorry you are being sucked in...DONT BE THE STUDENT of this guy....Be a researcher....Read the books of those that matter first......Fdr the war president ,Churchills book,eisonhowers book,nimtzs book, lemays book...yuck...ok even montgomerys book, yes and genl marshall,or pattens book please for your own sake read some of these first.... wotan says 20million russians died.....ask him how many did russia herself kill...ask how many white russians stalin killed after they let out of german pow camps....dont believe me put me on that list where you never hear from me again.....just do this yourself.

Offline Wotan

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so, you helped huh? (Warsaw Uprising)
« Reply #153 on: August 04, 2004, 06:17:44 PM »
Demaw,

The only revisionism going here is yours in how you attempt to redefine the thread.

During the crucial years when the Germans still had a chance at victory the western allied bombing campaign achieved very little in terms of collapsing the German economy. It wasn’t until '44 and '45 where the greatest impact of the bombing campaign was felt. But even then German production was high; they produced more aircraft for instance etc...

The greatest impact on Germany war industry late in the war was when the Romanians switched sides and the Germans had lost access to their oil.

This was accomplished by troops on the ground, Soviet troops. At this point in the war it was all but over for Hitler. The statistics are there for you to examine. It’s the same with lend lease. The Soviets didn’t receive the lion share until the situation was by far in their favor.

So these aren’t my points. These are undisputable facts. I provided you a link to the

THE UNITED STATES STRATEGIC BOMBING SURVEY

Try reading it. It is hardly Soviet post war propaganda. You will see it’s just as stated in the quote above. The Bombing campaign didn’t reach its goals until late in the war, at a point of time when Germany's defeat was inevitable.

Your view is skewed and unbalanced and very much biased.  But either way I didn’t bring up strategic bombing your pal Rino did. I didn’t bring up lend lease your pal Rino did. I didn’t bring up who owes who a "thank you" Rino did. So quit lying about what's been said in this thread.

I also never mentioned  England and the Middle East in terms of World War 2. I said following World War 1 the French and British actions in the Middle East directly led to the situation we face now.

Did you need a lesson on that as well?

All these are prime examples of you distorting what has been said in this thread. You have yet to provide facts to support any one of your points or any facts to counter one of mine.

I never replied to you until you said something to me. I care nothing about you outside of the few replies you made to me. As I said above I don’t read your posts because they are for the most part unreadable and mostly a lot of drivel.

How about making an effort to put together a coherent post with sources and facts to support your view? Leave all the psycho babble to the professionals and just put together something that contains more then just Ami arrogant nonsense.

Anonymous,

Volumes have been written on the subject of how the Germans could have defeated the Soviets. I for one don’t think it a realistic possibility. There may have been a small opportunity for the Germans to achieve the original goals but a series of mistakes, bad luck and fierce Soviet resistance (kick the door in and the whole rotten structure will collapse; kind of like Iraq but on a larger scale) proved insurmountable .

Even if the Germans achieved their goals the world would have rallied and sent massive aid to what was left of the Soviet Union. America would have landed troops in Iran and kept oil flowing and supply routes open. I don’t think the Soviets would have ever surrendered out right.  Look at Leningrad for instance.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2004, 06:32:24 PM by Wotan »

Offline Wotan

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so, you helped huh? (Warsaw Uprising)
« Reply #154 on: August 04, 2004, 06:29:30 PM »
Quote
wotan says 20million russians died


I never offered any figure. Did you even read my replies?

Why don’t you tell us how many the Soviets killed after all it’s your point right?

Keep posting "facts" like that and you may change my mind about you being an idiot. I am starting to think you have a serious mental defect.

Offline Angus

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so, you helped huh? (Warsaw Uprising)
« Reply #155 on: August 04, 2004, 06:33:03 PM »
22 million soviets died.
Without the Effort of the Western allies, how many then?
50 perhaps? or a 100 including starvations and so on?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline demaw1

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so, you helped huh? (Warsaw Uprising)
« Reply #156 on: August 04, 2004, 08:35:26 PM »
anonymous....
     If you read Mc Aurthors book first ,what do you have to lose.

    When it comes to japan, russia and america at the end of the war. Who would know more?..You will learn from the horses mouth the relationship involving these three countries. To this day he is well respected in japan,for many reasons.One of them was the way he protected japan from russia, stood like a stone wall and made them back down.I wont even say why, read for your self.

Offline anonymous

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so, you helped huh? (Warsaw Uprising)
« Reply #157 on: August 04, 2004, 09:46:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by demaw1
anonymous....
     If you read Mc Aurthors book first ,what do you have to lose.

    When it comes to japan, russia and america at the end of the war. Who would know more?..You will learn from the horses mouth the relationship involving these three countries. To this day he is well respected in japan,for many reasons.One of them was the way he protected japan from russia, stood like a stone wall and made them back down.I wont even say why, read for your self.


ill read em all when i get the time. second world war not my forte really but i think safe bet russia was pretty tired of fighting by the end. also wotan didnt tell me twenty million russians kia i did some reading thru afternoon and saw that mentioned more than once. and i dont doubt that was same back then as it is now and always been the guys who run the gulags and shoot the political prisoners in back of head are never the guys fighting on the line. safe bet that twenty million was civvies who got caught in war unable to get clear and soldiers fighting on the line. evil leadership of soviet union are separate from some twenty years old russian packin a rifle fighting the germans to me. sadly the scum most responsible for the really heinous bs are never the guys who pay the bill. bosnia was kind of a break from the pattern so maybe there is justice every once in awhile eventually.

Offline Torque

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so, you helped huh? (Warsaw Uprising)
« Reply #158 on: August 04, 2004, 09:48:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
22 million soviets died.
Without the Effort of the Western allies, how many then?
50 perhaps? or a 100 including starvations and so on?


Didn't Stalin account for a big chunk of that?

Offline anonymous

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so, you helped huh? (Warsaw Uprising)
« Reply #159 on: August 04, 2004, 09:56:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Torque
Didn't Stalin account for a big chunk of that?


i dont think so but wotan seems to be guy to ask. stalin did lots of damage before war and screwed over a bunch of loyal russians after war because he considered them a threat. guys coming off line fighting germans for four years arent going to exactly bow down before some commisar "telling them how it really is" i think.

Offline AWMac

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so, you helped huh? (Warsaw Uprising)
« Reply #160 on: August 04, 2004, 09:59:18 PM »
~Touche~  DeMaw

<<>>

Offline Wotan

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so, you helped huh? (Warsaw Uprising)
« Reply #161 on: August 04, 2004, 11:09:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AWMac
~Touche~  DeMaw

<<>>


Another Farm boi idiot speakth.

As to how evil Stalin is I have many posts on the subject, it’s not worth the effort to revisit it here. But no matter how evil he is both the Brits and Ami's were his "ally" and agreed to his version of post war Europe.

Macarthur can't offer a non bias view of his roll in the war any more then Tommy Franks can in his new book about Iraq or any General in any war.

They very well aren’t going to tell you their errors. But that is beside the point. There are any number of books that explain the Japanese / Soviet relations during the war. There are quite a few that explain the Soviets roll in aiding in the final defeat of Japan.

I have offered book references; de'idiot has offered nothing that comes close to being a source or fact. He just regurgitates whatever history channel has spoon fed him.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2004, 01:00:27 AM by Wotan »

Offline Wotan

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so, you helped huh? (Warsaw Uprising)
« Reply #162 on: August 04, 2004, 11:39:34 PM »
WW2 casualty figures:

Quote
The on-line edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica contains a Table listing estimated casualties for most countries involved in and affected by the Second World War.  The information from that table, augmented by information from a web page by Phil Stokes, is reflected in the following three graphs and the subsequent table.






« Last Edit: August 05, 2004, 12:52:00 AM by Wotan »

Offline demaw1

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so, you helped huh? (Warsaw Uprising)
« Reply #163 on: August 04, 2004, 11:40:51 PM »
Response to wotan....

    You have seen wotans replys and you have seen mine. You  have seen me lay out the best I can, the typical soviet /leftist  propaganda .I showed ,misdirection, hard and sound truth, and revisionist history...I am sure I lost most conservatives on this one.

    I only kept at it because of one young man,that was awed by a navel officer,a sub man.
   
   I never said everything wotan said was a lie,  I never put down the russian soldier or citizen,  hell If the germans would have had me I would have chosen hitler over stalin to.

  I never said we gave the same amount of lend lease in 42 as in 44/45. how could we , we werent geared up. I thought even the moderates in here would know,  that was a given....Guess i was wrong.

  I put down  on my last reply to wotan ...[1 thru 9 ] some of his quotes.
 and you didnt see the pattern,  I was  in his words an American idiot.  Hey OCTIVIOUS,  whens the last time you called some one an American idiot....yesterday??? I think not. Have we started talking that way now? All of you are right ,I am a country boy with a 6 th grade education. Funny Id feel a lot safer with a country boy next to me in a fox hole than most of you.

     What I objected to was the total disreguard for the bravery and dedication of all the men from all the countrys that fought.Unless of course you were russian.

     One of you said d-day was just a fart in total scheme of things.
     that the german troops were rubish that faced us at normandy. He said to say America won the war is ignorant. I Have never heard anyone in serious conversation say that..Yet of all the times it was said here, that russia won the war,russia would have beat germany without America..he said nothing.

   How many here believe,  that if I could bring the smallest man that died hitting the beach , back to life,  that this person, would have the guts to say to his face,   the germans you fought were rubish.

   I will say this:

America is the only country that could have fought germany to a stand still by herself....and maybe won.

      If germany had attacked russia and not been already at war she would have went thru russia like a knife thru butter.
     
 When germany attacked russia, her war production and economic mobilization was only at half. In 42 when the germans were at moscow,hitler thought he had it wrapped up....So he ordered a large scale cut back in war production and started recalling some units, against his generals wishes. does anyone wonder what might have happened if he had listen to his generals.

       I ONLY HAVE 2 MORE POINTS.

       WOTAN said, the greatist impact on germany late in the war was when romanians switched sides and the germans lost access to the oil...This was accomplished by soviet troops....russia again?   contrasted by this.

    Because of the bombing raids on polesti and luenas, from may 44 on, consumption of oil exceeded production. Accumulated stocks were rapidly used, and in 5 months were exhausted.

 Still cant put it all together?

   As I said before, wotans whole point is,   bombing did little good....should have given supplies to russia....russia could then win war faster than she did.    contrast this

      The german experance suggests that even a first class military power ,rugged and resilient as germany, can not live long under full scale exploitation of air weapons.  Thus allied air weapons were decisive in the war in europe.


      The significance of full domination of the air over the enemy must be emphasized.   That domination of the air is essential . With out it, attacks on the bascic economy and war production ability,  by ground forces cannot be delivered.
     
      Can anyone challange the truth of these 2 statements.....oh, please do..... So wotan at the end of ww2.....who had the air force?...war production and economic strength....the navy....the aircraft carriers.....food production.   manufacturing....baseball...T ell me anyone out there, by what streach of the imagination do you believe russia would have defeated America in a war.


George w,Ball
     Harry bowman
    Theodore Wright.

     Charles C Cabot...secretary

    bottom line.....he has an agenda......I dont.

    therefore the name calling and put downs=  misdirection
    never  answering questions  Why?
   
     Thank you, from a dumb American idoit,   that can do nothing but drival.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2004, 02:08:51 AM by demaw1 »

Offline B17Skull12

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so, you helped huh? (Warsaw Uprising)
« Reply #164 on: August 05, 2004, 12:14:45 AM »
lol you still persist.  Russia is bigger and will always have big manufacturing capablities.  Its natural Resources are huge and i mean huge.  There is no possible way an army of 3 million can defeat an army of 10 million on a 2000 mile front.

Again Allies opposion on normady was dwarfed by the massive German armies on the Eastern Front.

The German's have around 11 Division by normdy, 3 of which were panzers, another 2 infantry.  The Rest Costal Defenses.

While during the Same time on the Eastern front the Germans have 12 Armies.
18th
16
3rd (panzer)
4th
9th
2nd
4th (Panzer)
1st (panzer)
Ruminian 4th
8th and
6th.

that made up 3 army groups.

2 Divisions= Corp
2-3 Corps= An army.

The Soveits had Army Groups, which comprised of a bunch of Army Armies.

Army Group Leningrad (Cmdr Govorov)
Army Group 2nd Baltic (Cmdr Popov)
Army group 1st Baltic (Cmdr Bagramyan
Army Group 2nd White Russian (Cmdr Sokolovski)
Army Group 1st White Russian (Cmdr Rokossovski)
Army Group 1st Ukrainian (Cmdr Zhukov)
Army Group 2nd Ukrainian (Cmdr Konev)
Army Group 3rd Ukrainian (Cmdr Malinovski)
Army Group 4th Ukrainian (Cmdr Tolbukhin)
then also have a single lone army on Crimea during D Day.

Those Russian Numbers are staggering.  Around 2000-3000 men are in a division.
that means around 4000-6000 men in a  Corps.
12000-18000 in an army.
im going to say around 30k-50k in a Army group.

somehow i know those calcuations aren't right.

Most of The German Divisnios were up at Calais.  you have roughly 11 Divsions in a 60miles x 60 miles area up at Calais.  The 11 normady divisnios i said were spreate out of 120x 120 roughly.  You also had a few HQ's in that area including.

Army Group B (Cmdr Rommel) about 40 miles West of Paris.
XLVII (Panzer) Corp HQ.
7th Army down to the south (Cmdr Dolllmann)

The Only Thing Remotly close to an Airforce was the 3rd Airforce about 30 miles to the South East of Paris.
While i count 4 Airforce Divsion and a airforce Group AEAF and the 1x Tactic Air Corp.

Sorry the Guys on normandy had it easy compared to the Russian front.

anyway my source is.
The West Point Atleas of American Wars.  Volume II 1900-1953
Compiled by The Department of Military Art and Engineering
United States Military Academy.
West Point, New York.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2004, 12:34:05 AM by B17Skull12 »
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