New idea what do you ladies and gentlemen think.

[Murdr]

Originally posted by Virage
keep it simple.

restrict switching to the country with the most numbers first.  See how the MA reacts.

It will nudge the numbers towards balance and my be enough in and of itself.


btw I am against the time restriction idea.    you will have more players frustrated about that then are currently upset about numbers.

Arrrrrrrrgh! I been saying that for a couple weeks lol

[Rolex]

This is the country dispersion as of a few minutes before posting this.

I just wanted to substantiate my earlier point that numbers alone do not determine the state of the war. The rooks have captured nothing and lost 4 fields in the last 30 minutes to both knights and bishops because of missions and squad actions against them, while offering no offense or cooperative missions - only defense.

Having such a system in effect would only enhance the herd effect since rooks would be limited and the others would not. If players choose not to consider the benefit derived from cooperative, organized action, numbers will not save them.

Maybe...

[X2Lee]

Originally posted by Waffle BAS
still think it's a simple matter of greed and rewards...even if a pilot doesn't fly for perks...knowing that he can make about 20+ perk points a kill will draw a few.

Isnt that kinda dumb?

I dont fly for perks  wait! wait! I can change country and make PERKIES!!

yeha!! wheres the line?

doh...

[Dawggus]

Originally posted by hitech
I also do not buy into the argument that it would be limiting in any way, all it would be is the big sides choice to wait to fly or to change sides. Thats a choice to make, not a limit.

I respectfully disagree.  If a customer primarily flies Squad Ops, which it sounds like many do based on the responses, we have limited their gameplay if they are in a "timeout" when the Squad rolls.  I would not prefer to switch sides and miss the enjoyment and camraderie of my Squadmates, instead I would just fly every "other" mission with my Squad.  I guess in a way that is my choice, but it's driven from the reason I play this game, to fly with my Squaddies.  I don't think I'm alone.

It's a tough problem, and I appreciate the fact that HiTech is looking at it and asking our opinions.  The worm eventually turns on these types of things, did in AW and have over time in AH.

Honestly, I think things were even worse back when Rooks were in the tank, because it was always a mad rush between the Bish and Knits to see who could reset the Rooks first.  The only time we had a repreive was when Knits and Bish had to turn on each other to get the base lead.  Now, even when Rooks have the numbers on Sundays, it feels like a more even fight because the Bish and Knits are smart enough to team up against the Rooks and make it an even fight.

Cya Up!

Dawg

[kevykev56]

Was just thinking this time limit could cause an inverse reaction. 10 people are killed and they have to wait to up. One guy bored with the wait decides I will make a mission. He has to make the mission time to launch say 15 minutes. All who are waiting decide I will find a mission while I wait, Join up and wait till it launches.

Now not only is the other teams still outnumbered but now they are getting killed by an even more organized horde. This time limit would force organization. Lots more of the newer guys who die more frequent are now going in masse instead of one at a time ant trails. This could even further unbalance the arena.

RHIN0

[oboe]

Here's another tack at it:   It's not the side imbalance that is such a problem, it's the concentration of so many pilots on a single point, overwhelming any possible defense.    Its the 'steam roller' offense enabled by a side's overwhelming population that is really the problem, no?    Put another way, even if the Rooks outnumber the Knights or Bishops 2 to 1, it's an even fight if both opposing sides are fighting the Rooks and not themselves.   So side imbalances aren't necessarily the problem - it's the tactics they enable that are undermining gameplay.

So maybe instead of putting time constraints on pilot's re-upping, another solution would be to restrict bases' abilities to spawn such huge waves of attackers.    For example, each plane that departs a base would reduce that base's supply of fuel by a certain amount.  So maybe a 50-plane raid originating from a field would take the field's fuel capacity down to 50% (which could be brought back up by delivering airfield supplies, or could be restored the same way field fuel damage is 'restored').

It's a realistic solution, since fields in RL aren't able to support infinite flights without receiving supplies.  Also it might spread the action out around the maps, and its a little more player friendly than simply denying players the ability to spawn anywhere on the map unless they change sides.

I actually like the idea of underdogs and perk modifiers.   If a side balancing mechanism is put in that works perfectly, they'll be no more opportunities to fly for the underdog and get cheaper perk planes.

this is a good discussion; its pleasing to see HT involve us like this.

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by hitech
So far my thoughts on alternatives of perks or plane limitation , is that I realy doubt they would motivate people to change sides.

Right now it should be obvious that the perk multiply has almost no effect, implementing somthing similar as sugested might triple the effect but it would still have almost no effect. So what we would be left with, is more complaining, but the problem would still remain.

The other problem I see with limiting the top used planes, is that the numbers advantage would still greatly out wiegh  the plane type advantage. In fact the lesser used planes like the p47 start to realy shine when you have a numbers advantage.

I also do not buy into the argument that it would be limiting in any way, all it would be is the big sides choice to wait to fly or to change sides. Thats a choice to make, not a limit.

I have no doubt that the time limit with the right settings would balance the fight, regardless if people changed sides.


And a big thanks for keeping this discussion fairly civil so far.


HiTech

htech why do you always have to make sense?!

You did the same thing the last time we talked on the phone about Ch200 and Ch1 for 20 minutes! lol

I kept saying one thing and you'd come back say no it wouldnt work and then make sense as to why it wouldnt work! And then honestly convinced me that Ch200 was a good idea! grrr why!? lol

Now you got me thinking that this new Idea is somewhat  a good thing! lol I still have questions and some doubts but more of me says yes to it now than no. grrr why?!Why ya gotta be like that? lol

I dont know... Anything to fix the numbers thing or atleast try to fix it is a start. And I guess the wait wouldnt be that long to reup. AAAANNND if you didnt like waiting to reup go elsewhere.

 Man, I need to take out with me when me and the little lady want to see a movie and she wants to see a chick flick and I want to see Action... Of course you are going to argue on my side tho! lol

[AKFokerFoder+]

Murdr:

Just curious, what would you think about perk modifying ENY values, so that perk earnings go down as number advantage

Works for me, I like it

quote:
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Also, allowing players to switch to the lowest numbered side without the normal 12 hr wait, so they can take advantage of the perks and cheap rides.[/B]
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Im not understanding where the 12hr wait keeps one from taking advantage of that. Most people fly a couple hours at a time, and can switch back when they log on the next day.

Well here is the scenario.  You log on Sunday afternoon, and switch to Rook,  the12 hr timer starts.  Later that evening you can't switch sides to get the perkies and planes  by switching to Bish.

True it would effect only a few players, but every player who switched means a more balanced field.

Personaly I just wait until Bish lose their dar on Sundays, then I log.  But that is only because I don't like being a blind target padding someones kill buffer.

[Grimm]

I guess this Idea for me would boil down to this....

Since I wont change countries,  How long do I have wait between each flight?  
If its a minute,  No Big.  If its 15mins,  Ill go do something else.

At what point does it become imbalanced to the point that things need to attempt balancing??  
If its when one country has a 5 pilot advantage its exessive.   If its when one country has 100+ pilot advantage it might be livable.   Seems to me that anytime countries are with 25-30% of each other it doesnt need to be balanced.  

It is disappointing to me that HT has felt the need to step in at all.   I hope no one took offense at my slight joke of "Rook Rule" but it does feel for me to be directed at the Rooks.

[ghostdancer]

I still think the first step is to get good statistics on actually attendance in the MA per country. A log program that records the numbers per country at 15 minute intervals over they day will allow for an actual snapshot of how things are going. Instead of relying on people talking about their perception.

I have tried to do this myself for the times I have fly .. nights around 9 - 11 pm EDT. Been really busy with freelance web/graphic work so its not as thorough as it should be but here is what I got since tracking (and yes, I know all sundays have the Rooks around 180-200 form 9-11):

Mon -   7/19/2004   9:07   pm EDT -   B157 -   K106 -   R124   :http://www.dgideon.org/aceshigh/ahss1.png
Mon -   7/19/2004   10:09   pm EDT -   B183 -   128 -   R139   :http://www.dgideon.org/aceshigh/ahss3.png
Tues -   7/20/2004   9:04   pm EDT -   B126 -   K82 -   R136   :http://www.dgideon.org/aceshigh/ahss4.png
Tues -   7/20/2004   10:00   pm EDT -   B141 -   K107 -   R163   :http://www.dgideon.org/aceshigh/ahss5.png
Weds -   7/21/2004   10:00   pm EDT -   B153 -   K95 -   R150   :http://www.dgideon.org/aceshigh/ahss6.png
Weds -   7/22/2004   8:59   pm EDT -   B125 -   K111 -   R122   :http://www.dgideon.org/aceshigh/ahss7.png
Thurs -   7/22/2004   10:26   pm EDT -   B132 -   K126 -   R122   :http://www.dgideon.org/aceshigh/ahss8.png
Thurs -   7/29/2004   9:21   pm EDT -   B124 -   K102 -   R145   :http://www.dgideon.org/aceshigh/ahss15.png
Thurs -   7/29/2004   10:27   pm EDT -   B112 -   K123 -   R167   :http://www.dgideon.org/aceshigh/ahss16.png
Thurs -   7/29/2004   11:49   pm EDT -   B85 -   K108 -   R127   :http://www.dgideon.org/aceshigh/ahss17.png
Fri -   7/30/2004   9:36   pm EDT -   B133 -   K98 -   R154   :http://www.dgideon.org/aceshigh/ahss18.png
Sat -   7/31/2004   9:39   pm EDT -   B137 -   K118 -   R160   :http://www.dgideon.org/aceshigh/ahss19.png
Sun -   8/1/2004   9:36   pm EDT -   B136 -   K114 -   R203   :http://www.dgideon.org/aceshigh/ahss20.png
Sun -   8/1/2004   10:43   pm EDT -   B122 -   K124 -   R208   :http://www.dgideon.org/aceshigh/ahss21.png
Thurs -   8/5/2004   9:36   pm EDT -   B142 -   K152 -   R150   :http://www.dgideon.org/aceshigh/ahss22.png
Monday - 8/9/2004   9:43   pm EDT -   B156 -   K113 -   R148   :http://www.dgideon.org/aceshigh/ahss23.png
Monday - 8/9/2004   10:59   pm EDT -   B121 -   K133 -   R146   :http://www.dgideon.org/aceshigh/ahss24.png
Tuesday - 8/10/2004   9:35   pm EDT -   B120 -   K132 -   R159   :http://www.dgideon.org/aceshigh/ahss25.png


If you take a look at the screen shots also look at the bases held by each other country. In many cases the country with the least numbers has the least amount of bases but not always. Also if you look at this past sunday you will see that even though the Rooks almost outnumbered the Knights and Bishops combined that those two countries held the Rooks to a virtual stand still.

Couple trends is that that 2nd largest country (base wise) tends to attack the largest country base wise when the country with the lowest bases passes a certain threshold .. to try to prevent reset (not always the case but a trend).

Next interesting developing trend is that once a certain number of pilots are on .. massively outnumbering the other two countries they tend to both start slamming the larger country (don't think its coordinated) as they percieve it as a massive threat. Basically stale mating it until interest is lost by the hoarder (Rook) and people start logging off for sleep.

[DREDIOCK]

I think that form a buisness standpoint it wouldnt be a good move.
Be it because they are forced to wait. or because they dont feel like being horded

Anytime you have playes logging off its not a good thing.
Though I agree something needs to be done.

I propose that we add a bit of realism and have base. or better yet Zone limits as to how many planes can be up from aparticular feild  or zone at any given time.
After all  Airfeilds could not and now cannot supply or maintain an unlimited amount of planes at any given time.
why should they here.

I like the zone limit better.
this wouldnt force anyone to wait around before then can fly again and  would at least force the masses to spread out or take off from bases farther back

And speaking of a supply side perhaps have massive numbers start facing logistical problems just as they would have in real life.
say once X amount of aircraft up from a base reduce the amount of fuel or type of ord they could carry up to and including the dreaded 25% fuel Then as the number from a zone or base start reducing from attrition those supply numbers would go back up accordingly

I beleive a combination of these two would go a long way to  creating a more balanced fight even if one side has massive numbers.
And nobody would have to wait,switch countries. or log off.
If face wiith zone or logistical problems they would have the choice from upping from a different zone and taking a longer flight (who knows it might even encourage more people to fly buffs)
 Or in heading to a different target area altogether

[oboe]

Drediock see my post above; I think you and I are on the same track...

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by ghostdancer
(and yes, I know all sundays have the Rooks around 180-200 form 9-11):

LOL conservative numbers. But thats cool

Try 180-250
This past sunday I looked at one point they had 240

One night some months ago they almost reached 300

[Murdr]

Originally posted by Grimm

At what point does it become imbalanced to the point that things need to attempt balancing??  
If its when one country has a 5 pilot advantage its exessive.   If its when one country has 100+ pilot advantage it might be livable.   Seems to me that anytime countries are with 25-30% of each other it doesnt need to be balanced.

Grimm.  Consider the average joe that only has time to log on for an hour or 2 after work.  Now consider that joe logs on every night for weeks to find frustration with his country being ganged.  If joe isnt in a squad he might just go to the high number country to bypass the frustration (making matters worse).  Or if he's in a squad or flies with friends, he is stuck with the situation for however long it lasts.  How long does it take for the numbers to cycle now a year?
 
If something could be done to speed up that cycle so that it isnt a given that country x will be up by 30-150 pilots, I think it would be a worthy endevor.

[FT_Animal]

Originally posted by warhound
Two sides would be good.

No it wouldn't,.... trust me


Animl