Author Topic: Ki-84, "Macho blue yonder" and P-51-'38-'47 killer or just another stop gap fighter?  (Read 2883 times)

Offline 1K3

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Offline GRUNHERZ

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Well it depends how they model it..   The protypes only did 390mph, the cleaned up and reengined production ones did 415 and a pristine USA fueled and tested one did over 420mph and was actually faster than P51D and P47N at its best alt..

Expect a lot of crying if its faster than F4U1D on the deck..

Offline lasersailor184

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I'll be happy as long as they don't give it the 30's like in IL2.
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Offline Karnak

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I expect it will probably do 392 at its best altitude like the second prototype.  In that case it will be a good fighter, but not exceptionally so.

I would love to see HTC try to do a production Ki-84 as flown in Japanese service by extrapolating from the various sources what it's performance would be.  Essentially using the difference between the Japanese prototype tests and the US ideal tests based on the Japanese engineer's statements of what a production Ki-84 would do.  Say at best altitude you have 392mph in Test A and 424mph in Test B with a stated best for the production model in Japanese service of 415mph.  Even using simple relative percentage breakdowns in order to get an idea of acceleration, climb and speeds at other altitudes would more accurately reflect a Japanese service Ki-84 than the second prototype's test results would.

IIRC, in the US tests the Ki-84 was faster than either the P-51D or P-47N up to a bit above the Ki-84's best altitude.


lasersailor184,

I wouldn't worry about the 30mm version.  It will not be added.  Besides, IL-2:FB's gun modeling is screwy.  The Ki-84 with two 20mm and two 30mm seems to have about 50 times the firepower of the Ki-84 with four 20mm cannon given the ease with which I can blow the big six engined German transports into bits with it and can barely kill one with the quad 20mm version.
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Offline Kweassa

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Think of it as a cross between a La-5FN and a Spit9.

 The speeds are pretty much comparable to the La-5FN at almost all alt ranges, and being famed as a fighter with one of the most favorable thrust-weight ratio in WW2, its acceleration might even compare with the La-7.

 The N1K2 is actually one of the most fast accelerating planes in AH2, between 0~250mph range - this characteristic of JP planes are often overlooked due to their low top speed, but the Ki-84 will finally be a JP plane that has enough top speed to consider the acceleration factor as a serious threat.

 I'm not sure of its maneuverability status, but IIRC Mitsu commented that it would be on par with the Spit9, and I'll take his word for it. If we assume that is a optimistic vision it's still pretty impressive - the maneuverability in my own estimation, will be somewhere between the Spit9 and the La5FN/Yak-9U.

 The armament, compared to the N1K2, would be probably pretty much weak - two 12.7mm machine guns and two 20mm cannons.

 However, the Ho-5 cannons were derived from the Browning M2 50cal design, and its firing rate and accuracy would be impressive. The Ho-5 is mounted on  the Ki-61-I - pretty reliable cannon IMO.

 ...

 Compared to the MA where speed is king, it is still about one notch too slow than most of the main contendors(such as the La-7 or the P-51D, Fw190D-9).

 However, if the Ki-84 would really accelerate that fast, then it would mean in most cases the Ki-84 would reach higher speeds more quickly than other planes. This is of very great importance in combat - especially low-mid alt combat which is dominant in the MA.

 Also, any plane that has some balance between maneuverability and firepower is a lethal plane. In AH1 this was the reason why the Spit9 and the N1K2 was so popular. Eventually, with the coming of AH2, realistic gunnery ruled out the Spit9 and the N1K2 as an influential plane, since they can't lob 500yard shots so easily anymore. The Spit9 and the N1K2 was simply just too slow for AH2.

 Now, imagine that the Spit9 receives some upgrades -  the power and acceleration of the Lavochkin fighters. A Spit9 that is far faster than it used to be. That, is IMO undeniably a serious threat for many.

 Even more profound, is that the Ki-84 can wield combat flaps. A fowler type flap with "combat" position that merely extends straight backwards to increase wing area, but add very low drag.

 The fowler flap(coupled with no torque!) is what makes the heavy and titanic sized(its actually bigger than the P-47) P-38L so maneuverable in AH2. Imagine the same efficient flap type that is used by a much more lighter, nimble, single-engined fighter.


 ......

 Like someone mentioned, the Ki-84 will probably become the last plane that holds enough importance to potentially transform MA plane choices and usage numbers. If my estimates are right, the former Spit9 and N1K2 croud will all move over to the Ki-84, and it will form a new "Big4" with the La-7, Fw190D-9, P-51D. I predict about 8~12% usage rates constantly.

 It is definately not perk material - with a plane like the La-7 and the P-51D, Fw190D-9 free, frankly no prop plane is perk material(at least, high perk material ranging over 10 perks) in the MA. However, it is a plane with a potential that might bring some alternative fighting styles in the MA.

Offline Redd

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Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa

 ......

 Like someone mentioned, the Ki-84 will probably become the last plane that holds enough importance to potentially transform MA plane choices and usage numbers. If my estimates are right, the former Spit9 and N1K2 croud will all move over to the Ki-84, and it will form a new "Big4" with the La-7, Fw190D-9, P-51D. I predict about 8~12% usage rates constantly.

 It is definately not perk material - with a plane like the La-7 and the P-51D, Fw190D-9 free, frankly no prop plane is perk material(at least, high perk material ranging over 10 perks) in the MA. However, it is a plane with a potential that might bring some alternative fighting styles in the MA.



Yep I would go with that Kweassa, not looking forward to battling streams of Ki-84's in the Hellcat. The way things are rapidly heading, many  of the mid-range planes are becoming totally obsolete.

Ki-84 will render another few planes very difficult to survive in  f4u-1 109G2/G6 F6-F  205 spit9? tiffie ? will all suddenly have a  high use plane that will outurn and  outrun them. At least they have a good chance of outturning the Lala.


20-25%  of the MA made up of lala's and ki-84's is going to be interesting.

Been looking for a new ride anyway, getting sick of never being able to catch anyone.
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Offline GScholz

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Quote
Originally posted by Redd
At least they have a good chance of outturning the Lala.


Nope. The Lala will outturn all the planes you mentioned, even the F6F.
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Offline Redd

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Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Nope. The Lala will outturn all the planes you mentioned, even the F6F.



Didn't we have that discussion already in another thread. Anyway my experience in hellcat says it can outturn lala's. It can't e-fight them if the Lala is flown smart-  but it can turnfight them.

The Ki-84 will  probably outturn the lala fairly easily I would imagine, and will run rings around the hellcat
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Offline 214thCavalier

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I cannot ever recall being outturned by an La whilst flying an F6F-5.

Offline Angus

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Lala a good turner?
Anyway, at 20K+ the Spit9 first starts it's job.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Mitsu

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a production model of Ki-84 could run at 410mph (660km/h) with 2000hp engine (from Japanese Army's data).

But this data is Ki-84-I-Otsu's one (20mm*4 model).
I'm very interested how Pyro models AH's Ki-84-I-Ko.
If he considers it has 2000hp engine, that plane's max speed should be around 410mph. and its climb or acceleration performance is also well.

Oh, if so, stronger counter-torque should be considered too. :D
« Last Edit: September 19, 2004, 04:48:04 PM by Mitsu »

Offline HoHun

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Hi Mitsu,

>a production model could run at 410mph (660km/h) with 2000hp engine.

Do you know the boost (manifold pressure) and rpm required for that?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Mitsu

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I'm looking at details of takeoff and emergency power data...
But here is some HA-45-21 2000hp engine data that production model of Ki-84 had.

1890hp@1800m with 3000rpm/+350mHg
1700hp@6400m with 3000rpm/+350mHg

Offline Karnak

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Mitsu,

Hmm.  I'd guess I'd recalled 415mph incorrectly.

Can you post documents about the 410mph production Ki-84-I with the Ha-45-21 engine?
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Offline Mitsu

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Hmmm it's pretty hard translation job because my English is too poor!
I need FDutman's help!