Author Topic: Ki-84, "Macho blue yonder" and P-51-'38-'47 killer or just another stop gap fighter? (Read 3011 times)

Fruda · « **Reply #45 on:** September 21, 2004, 04:13:19 PM »

Apologies, Karnak.

My source was a bad one, I guess. Thanks for the actual info.

I never would've known that the Ki-84 had Laminar Flow wings if you didn't tell me.

Karnak · « **Reply #46 on:** September 21, 2004, 04:29:28 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Fruda
Apologies, Karnak.

My source was a bad one, I guess. Thanks for the actual info.

I never would've known that the Ki-84 had Laminar Flow wings if you didn't tell me.

No proplem. Sorry if I came on a bit strong.

As I said, the Japanese made plenty of huge, stupid mistakes, but the engineers were quite capable.

Actually, I don't know of any aircraft besides the P-51 and Ki-84 from WWII that had laminar flow wings. I know the Supermarine Spiteful had them, but that was post war.

I'm sure somebody like Widewing will shortly let me know a whole bunch of obvious aircraft I overlooked that also had such wings.

Fruda · « **Reply #47 on:** September 21, 2004, 04:38:55 PM »

Lol @ Spiteful.

Didn't the P-47-D40 have them, too, or did it just have elliptical wings?

Karnak · « **Reply #48 on:** September 21, 2004, 04:54:35 PM »

I don't believe that the P-47 underwent a complete wing change. I know the P-47N or M (I don't recall which) had different wings, but they were still based on the original P-47 wings.

So far as I know either all P-47s had laminar flow wings or none did.

Redd · « **Reply #49 on:** September 21, 2004, 05:15:53 PM »

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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
[B

granted, the F6f-5 has no option of trying to run, if it has alt though, and the Ki-84 trys to run, the F6f has great diving speed and in the short range may even catch the Ki-84 and cause him to have to turn/rev/etc...... so although the Ki-84 is the faster plane, the F6f will be the dictating force of this latter scenario

we all have our opinions, and I am not saying anyone here is wrong, I am merely explaining how I view it, and I think it is in the hands of the pilot.... [/B]

I understand what you are saying TC. But I am relating it to fighting Spitfires. Typical engagment with spit , you can work out in the first couple of maneuvers whether they guy is any good. (often just by the merge).

If the guy is no good I can handle it in the F6-F , If the guy is good , I won't win a close fought turnfight, so have to decide whether to slug it out - or bug out, try to extend etc. Can't gain E on a spit 9 , so it's really just a case of running away if you want to survive.

I am picturing the same types of engagements where running/extending/grabbing E is not an option , so it's a fight to the death.

The only 1 on 1 planes/situations I really fear when flying a F6-F - are a high niki or a high spit. KI-84 could well be worse than both of those.

None of this is a complaint , just calling it the way I see it - gonna be a fun challenge.

Angus · « **Reply #50 on:** September 25, 2004, 08:26:37 AM »

The Spiteful was partly disappointing.
The laminar flow wings didn't make it that much faster.
Now here's something from above:

"Now, imagine that the Spit9 receives some upgrades - the power and acceleration of the Lavochkin fighters. A Spit9 that is far faster than it used to be. That, is IMO undeniably a serious threat for many. "

Hehe, so would a Spit XIV without a perk tag.

Not to mention the 1943 Mk VIII,- roughly the performance of the XIV (climb and speed), while being nimbler than the Mk IX, as well as being optimized for both low and high alt.

Now that would leave many a pilot in serious trouble....

Anyway, a Spit IX stops being slow at 20K......

Wotan · « **Reply #51 on:** September 25, 2004, 10:02:39 AM »

Frank's Top-Speed:388 or 427mph...):Case Closed?

Karnak · « **Reply #52 on:** September 25, 2004, 04:14:09 PM »

Interesting read Wotan.

The more I think about it the more I hope Pyro tries to model a wartime service Ki-84 and not a prototype Ki-84.

I know the data is not really out there and would have to be fudged a bit, but there is enough data between the US and Japanese tests to make good, educated fudges.

I am also fairly certain that there are already quite a few fudges numbers in AH on aircraft like the N1K2-J, La-7, Ki-67, C.205 and D3A1. I could be wrong, but I don't think all the aircraft in AH have detailed test documentation.

Wotan · « **Reply #53 on:** September 25, 2004, 04:41:23 PM »

There's no need to do a 388mph top speed version. It adds nothing to the game at all.

A Homare - 21 @ 1970hp should have np reaching 427mph. The problem lies in finding accurate source info.

Whatever you do dont believe the hype that just because 100 octane was used that it added some 40mph to the Ki84's top speed.

Read that document Nashwan posted in the 150 avgas thread.

"Depending on the plane it gave an average increase of 5 - 15 mph."

Karnak · « **Reply #54 on:** September 25, 2004, 05:01:25 PM »

As I understand it we used 100 octane to try to simulate the effect of the MW50 that the service Ki-84 used.

According to Mitsu and a post by brady the Ki-84 with the Homare 45-21 had a wartime service top speed of about 410mph. The 427 in the US test could have been due to the meticulous maintainance prior to that test as well as a slight boost from the fuel.

The bottom line is that the 388mph is from the first prototype using a Homare 45-11 and the 392mph is from the second prototype also using a Homare 45-11. Neither prototype had ejector exhaust stacks to gain boost and neither was a clean in line as the production model. There were several hundred service acceptance airframes completed and those may also have been powered by the Homare 45-11. However the vast majority, more than 2,000, were production airframes powered by the Homare 45-21 and with thrust producing ejector exhaust stacks. In addition I understand that the Homare 45-21 used a methanol-water mix as an anti-detonate to achieve higher manifold preasure.

The thread you linked to had a Japanese pilot reporting in interogation that the Ki-84 had a service max speed of 700kph.

At this point, and I will say I have learned a lot more about the Ki-84 in the last couple months, I would say the the US tests are a more accurate example of the service Ki-84 than the Japanese tests on the first two prototypes.

Kweassa · « **Reply #55 on:** September 26, 2004, 04:11:38 AM »

Then perhaps, with 390 being the lowest number and 427 being the highest, just choosing a nice, middle point might be best?

How about 415? Hehehe..

Wotan · « **Reply #56 on:** September 27, 2004, 05:39:17 AM »

Well nothing has been proven one way or the other. There's a lot of anecdotal and circumstantial evidence that the Ki-84s with a Homare 45-21 with 1970hp (or 2000hp) could reach 427.

But I doubt there's enough to convince HT to model that type of performance.

388mph is the safe bet. Hopefully we will be surprised.

427mph please!!!

Quote

Ha-45/11: (1st-speed): 400mm= 45.7" (2nd speed): 250mm= 39.8"

Ha-45/21: (1st-speed): 500mm= 49.6" (2nd-speed): 350mm= 43.7"

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My argument is to eventually show that the American test claim of 427mph @ 20,000ft was quite naturally to be expected of a FRANK powered by the Homare Model 21 (and-it W-A-S a Model 21...), if the (older) figure of 388mph was derived from a prototype powered by Homare Model 11, and that it could have hardly done otherwise if the later model engine, in fact, did fully-attain its intended "design-to" power-level, especially @ higher altitudes.

Mitsu · « **Reply #57 on:** September 27, 2004, 10:46:35 PM »

Pyro, are you planning to release the Ki-84-I-Otsu with few perks?
4 Ho-5 20mm cannons with 150 rounds each armament would be nice to intercept buffs.

Red Tail 444 · « **Reply #58 on:** September 28, 2004, 09:45:31 AM »

Sadly, nearly all MA fights end in the infamous HO, plane type notwithstanding.

She'll be a welcome member of the CT family, IMO

Slash27 · « **Reply #59 on:** September 28, 2004, 09:54:24 AM »

Gainsie!!!!!!!