Author Topic: Ki-84, "Macho blue yonder" and P-51-'38-'47 killer or just another stop gap fighter? (Read 3010 times)

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #30 on:** September 21, 2004, 06:10:38 AM »

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Originally posted by Karnak
Only if the Ki-84 dives on the P-51D/La-7 and they don't have anywhere to dive. Flat out both will be faster. Only if the American test data is used will the P-51D be introuble, but the La-7 will still be able to escape.

I was basing this on the Ki-84s ability to accelerate fast , more than the P51D, not sure bout the La7, La7 may just run away from the get go, not so with the P51D, Ki-84 will catch it in the short term, if the P51D trys to evade/extend now on the long haul, P51D will walk skip and jump away from the Ki-84 , again provided it has enough seperation at the onset

The problem they will have is that the Ki-84 out manuvers them and isn't all that much slower. It will also have good guns.

Only if the Ki-84 pilot consents to fight the F6F-5's game. If the Ki-84 plays it smart it will have the advantage.

and vice versa, if the F6f-5 pilot consents to the ki-84 pilots fight, he will lose, that is why I said it will come down to the pilot that flys his plane better,

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #31 on:** September 21, 2004, 06:14:29 AM »

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Originally posted by Redd
Ww2 stats bear out in the MA environment.

If the Ki-84 is faster than the F6-F , turns better than the F6-F and has a reasonable set of cannons, it will be deadly for a hellcats - I think that goes without saying.

There's only one advantage the hellcat will have - durability - it's going to need it

Redd,
I would not worry much encountering Ki-84s in the Arenas if I was you, most people who will jump at the chance to fly it will not understand the full ability of this plane, your Hellcat is gonna have some tremendous fun

GScholz · « **Reply #32 on:** September 21, 2004, 07:40:38 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
and vice versa, if the F6f-5 pilot consents to the ki-84 pilots fight, he will lose, that is why I said it will come down to the pilot that flys his plane better,

The plane with the best speed, climb or both can dictate the terms of engagement. That's what makes the Lala, 109s, 190s, P-38 and P-51s such good fighters.

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #33 on:** September 21, 2004, 08:28:30 AM »

sorry GScholz,

I would reply to your post, but I have met too many Lawyers in my lifetime, hence the reason I can not

Nilsen · « **Reply #34 on:** September 21, 2004, 08:35:30 AM »

I think the Ki84 will look just as burnt as the rest of them when i squeeze the trigger and my 8x50 cal deathrays pings it from prop to tail.

mmm... P47

Karnak · « **Reply #35 on:** September 21, 2004, 10:22:23 AM »

Widewing,

You well know that the pilot quality issues, the aircraft quality issues in some cases and the command and control issues of the late war Japanese are not present here.

It is statements like yours that have people complaining about other aircraft "because everybody knows the F6F slaughtered the Ki-84 and I can't do it in AH which means the Ki-84 is way overmodeled!!! WAAAAA!!!"

When the F6F-5 was shown for the first time players made comments like "It's going to slaughter the A6M5 in AH." I said it would be closer than they made it out to be. IIRC it took about 10 tours for the F6F-5 to have a positive K/D ratio over the A6M5b.

TequilaChaser,

GScholz is exactly correct. The F6F-5 doesn't get the choice about fighting the Ki-84's game. The Ki-84 simply does it. That is the advantage of a faster aircraft.

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #36 on:** September 21, 2004, 10:51:35 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak

TequilaChaser,
GScholz is exactly correct. The F6F-5 doesn't get the choice about fighting the Ki-84's game. The Ki-84 simply does it. That is the advantage of a faster aircraft.

I am not aurging with niether you Karnak or GScholz, and no the Ki-84 does not simply choose the way the fight goes....regardless of speed, climbing ability, turning ability....the fight is dictated by the actions of the pilot, and whether the F6f-5 pilot gives into the Ki-84 pilot's type of fight and vice versa.........with the exception of the Ki-84 pilot trying to pounce on the F6f-5 pilots head with an alt advantage, but it would only take 1 blown pass 2 at most for the E states to equal out, if the F6f-5 pilot knows what he is doing........ if rolls were reversed same would be said for the Ki-84 Pilot.....it wil come down to the Pilot........not every Ki-84 or F6f-5 you come across wil fly in the same manner.....If the pilot knows the abilitys and limitations of his aircraft and where it excels then he can control the fight, regardless if he is the attacker or if he is the defender from the first merge....

just wait til the plane is released to AH2.then we can compare some statistics...yes?

added: btw I do not see how some of you can out right say this Ki-84 for AH2 will be dominate when you do not even know how it is going to perform yet!

Karnak · « **Reply #37 on:** September 21, 2004, 11:00:03 AM »

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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
I am not aurging with niether you Karnak or GScholz, and no the Ki-84 does not simply choose the way the fight goes....regardless of speed, climbing ability, turning ability....the fight is dictated by the actions of the pilot, and whether the F6f-5 pilot gives into the Ki-84 pilot's type of fight and vice versa.........with the exception of the Ki-84 pilot trying to pounce on the F6f-5 pilots head with an alt advantage, but it would only take 1 blown pass 2 at most for the E states to equal out, if the F6f-5 pilot knows what he is doing........ if rolls were reversed same would be said for the Ki-84 Pilot.....it wil come down to the Pilot........not every Ki-84 or F6f-5 you come across wil fly in the same manner.....If the pilot knows the abilitys and limitations of his aircraft and where it excels then he can control the fight, regardless if he is the attacker or if he is the defender from the first merge....

We're not talking about ever encounter. We are talking about the Ki-84 vs F6F when the Ki-84 pilot is flying to the strengths of the Ki-84. I will speak from experience using slow bellybutton Spitfire Mk IX against an F6F. The F6F cannot equalize the E states. If it can't do it against a Spit IX it will not be able to do it against a Ki-84. I am at a loss as to how you think it could, especially after only one or two passes.

As to the idea that the slower aircraft gets a choice, please explain how. La-7s seem to have no problem forcing their fight on my Mossie.

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #38 on:** September 21, 2004, 11:00:42 AM »

btw

I am a devoted Hog flyer, granted I am just an average pilot, but with regards to dominating faster planes that get to control the fight...because they are faster

I seem to be able to control most fights I encounter when flying my slow poke D-Hog against a Tiffy, P-38, P-47, La-7 , P51D, 109G, even Spit IXs and FWs....not all of them but most of them if it is a 1 on 1 fight..and heck sometimes 2 vs me or 3 vs me depending if I am feeling up to the task!

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #39 on:** September 21, 2004, 11:02:46 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by TequilaChaser

just wait til the plane is released to AH2.then we can compare some statistics...yes?

added: btw I do not see how some of you can out right say this Ki-84 for AH2 will be dominate when you do not even know how it is going to perform yet!

I repeat

Meyer · « **Reply #40 on:** September 21, 2004, 11:51:50 AM »

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Originally posted by Widewing
A minor reality check. When encountering the Ki-84 during WWII, the F6F maintained and 8/1 kill to loss ratio, about the same as the P-38. F4U's didn't fare as well, killing 6 1/2 for each loss.

You mean claims/loss ratio, right?

GScholz · « **Reply #41 on:** September 21, 2004, 12:34:05 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
sorry GScholz,

I would reply to your post, but I have met too many Lawyers in my lifetime, hence the reason I can not

What are you, a CRIMINAL!?!

You may reply all you want, just don't use the information in my post.

>>>

Obviously when looking at kill ratios from real life the tactical advantages are the major contributing factor. Pilot skill only applies if the difference of skill is considerable. Same with aircraft performance.

Command, control and numbers win wars.

One-on-one the fastest or best climbing (to some degree) aircraft dictates the engagement and can choose when to leave. Manoeuvrability helps, but is a secondary attribute at best.

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #42 on:** September 21, 2004, 01:14:28 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GScholz
What are you, a CRIMINAL!?!

You may reply all you want, just don't use the information in my post.

>>>

Obviously when looking at kill ratios from real life the tactical advantages are the major contributing factor. Pilot skill only applies if the difference of skill is considerable. Same with aircraft performance.

Command, control and numbers win wars.

One-on-one the fastest or best climbing (to some degree) aircraft dictates the engagement and can choose when to leave. Manoeuvrability helps, but is a secondary attribute at best.

ok GS, I will buy in to that a faster plane can start out with the advantage to dictate the fight, I do not ignore the fact that a faster plane can chose to leave when it desires as well. The key factor is if the pilot recognizes the time is to extend or not. If a 1/2 way good pilot in a F6f-5 comes up against a hohum average ki-84 pilot I would put my money on the F6f-5 pilot, also with the F6f-5 in AH2 keep it around 230 to 300 in a fight and other planes are gonna have a hard time overcoming it, we will have to wait and see how the Ki-84 of AH2 checks out before we know its +'s and -'s, I am not talking about real life matters, I am refering to AH2 standards.......and most people do not give the F6f-5 the respect it truly deserves,
for instance if the F6f-5 engages with speed 300+ verses the Ki-84 near same speed, I could only see this engagement coming down to the pilots ability, if infact the Ki-84 is modeled in relation to the F6fs as in all the other sims out there.........regardless of it being a F6f-5 or -3 model, I have always noticed that these 2 particular planes when flown against each other with near equal talented flight sim pilots most times came down to a draw. giving the victory to either pilot

We do not yet know though, how the Ki-84 is going to perform in AH2......I am going to bet ( 1 cent ) that it will be close to the same

granted, the F6f-5 has no option of trying to run, if it has alt though, and the Ki-84 trys to run, the F6f has great diving speed and in the short range may even catch the Ki-84 and cause him to have to turn/rev/etc...... so although the Ki-84 is the faster plane, the F6f will be the dictating force of this latter scenario

we all have our opinions, and I am not saying anyone here is wrong, I am merely explaining how I view it, and I think it is in the hands of the pilot....

GScholz · « **Reply #43 on:** September 21, 2004, 01:48:24 PM »

In a one-on-one with equal starting advantage it is always up to the pilots. However speed and climb are the two most important factors of air combat when aircraft performance is considered.

Given equality in pilot skill and initial advantage the fastest and/or best climbing aircraft will always hold the advantage.

Wotan · « **Reply #44 on:** September 21, 2004, 02:10:56 PM »

Meyer, of course he refers to US kill claims. It's difficult enough trying to find a definitive number of Ki-84s produced let alone lost in combat, destroyed in transport, on the ground, or to accidents and other causes etc...

All you are left with is Ami claims.