Author Topic: Ki-84, "Macho blue yonder" and P-51-'38-'47 killer or just another stop gap fighter?  (Read 2886 times)

Offline Mitsu

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Anyway I hope that Pyro posts some comments about Aces High Ki-84 for discussion. ;)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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How come it only makes 410mph at 2000hp, its not a very big plane and not particularly draggy.

One thing I noticed is that Japan still used very thin propellers even on their late war planes, I wonder how much climb and accel they lost because of that on their 2000hp models..

Offline Fruda

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Their relatively low speed and low climb rate have to do with the way they were built.

Japanese planes had small props, plus they didn't really consider much technology in their airframes. Also, the engines weren't optimized like, say, a P-51D's.

Offline Karnak

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Originally posted by Fruda
Japanese planes had small props, plus they didn't really consider much technology in their airframes. Also, the engines weren't optimized like, say, a P-51D's.

You got anything to back any of that up?  At least definitions of it?

For example, the Ki-84 has lamilar flow wings like the P-51.  The N1K2-J had automatic combat flaps.

The engines were optimized for different altitudes.  Personally I think the P-51's was optimaized for the better altitudes, but that doesn't change the fact that the Japanese engines were also optimized for a given altitude.

Looking at photos of late war Japanese aircraft the props don't look particularly thin to me.  They aren't Fw190 thick, but they aren't Spitfire Mk Ia thin either.  They seem about like the thinker blades on Mosquitos and P-47s.  Further, they have four blades unlike the German props.


The lack of high top end speed isn't found in their designs, as American tests verify, it is found in their low production standards, poor maintainance in the late war and in the poor fuel.  Their designs were fine, but what kind of militaristic idiocy causes one to draft ones machine tool specialists and production experts to be conscription infantry?  In a industrial war, which WWII was, as an industrial combatant, which Japan was, it is sheer idiocy to deprive your industry of the skilled workers needed to put quality weapons into the hands of your soldiers, sailors and airmen and yet Japan did that too.
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Offline Kweassa

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Their designs were fine, but what kind of militaristic idiocy causes one to draft ones machine tool specialists and production experts to be conscription infantry? In a industrial war, which WWII was, as an industrial combatant, which Japan was, it is sheer idiocy to deprive your industry of the skilled workers needed to put quality weapons into the hands of your soldiers, sailors and airmen and yet Japan did that too.


 That's because Japan wasn't an industrial(or rather, "modern") country at heart. The standards and rationale of the moral code of the individual/community facing war(especially one that they cannot win) is vastly different from than those of the West.

 If the Japanese were thinking like the Westerners the war would have ended around 1943 or early 1944.

Offline Ghosth

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I'm not sure how it will be here. But the KI-84 in Brand W had a VERY nasty snap stall.

She was fast, & deadly, but heaven forbid if you pulled it around too hard.

I suspect the F6f at slow speeds will eat it for dinner, along with the 38.

Should make for some interesting times anyway.  :)

Offline Karnak

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Originally posted by Kweassa
the Japanese were thinking like the Westerners the war would have ended around 1943 or early 1944.

I think the German refusal to bow to the obvious kinda demostrates that Japan was not unique in it's stubborness.  Frankly, the Japanese surrendered earlier than the Germans did from a national destruction standpoint.
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Offline Kweassa

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If the Germans were thinking like the Japanese, and they had an Island home thousands of miles away from US and Russia and UK, then the war would have ended in 1950 or something.  :D

Offline Karnak

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Originally posted by Kweassa
If the Germans were thinking like the Japanese, and they had an Island home thousands of miles away from US and Russia and UK, then the war would have ended in 1950 or something.  :D

You missed my point.  The Germans were westerners that held on even more tenaciously than did the Japanese.

The German's had practically nothing left to surrender.  It had all been occupied.

The Japanese still had large portions of the mainland and Japan itself had yet to be invaded.  Barring the atomics they were going to go down exactly like the Germans.  There was no practical difference between the two nations stubborn refusal to bow to reality and end the pain and suffering by surrendering.
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Offline TequilaChaser

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how did a thread on the  Ki-84  big IF's

turn into why a country surrendered?

I see the new Ki-84 in Aces high running down the P-51D and possibly the La-7 in the short to intermediate range, but if you have enough seperation to start with it will be close wether the Ki-84 will catch the other 2 or not........

I see the Ki-84  fighting the F6f-5 as a draw all coming down to the better pilot of his/her plane.............
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Karnak

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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
I see the new Ki-84 in Aces high running down the P-51D and possibly the La-7 in the short to intermediate range, but if you have enough seperation to start with it will be close wether the Ki-84 will catch the other 2 or not........

Only if the Ki-84 dives on the P-51D/La-7 and they don't have anywhere to dive.  Flat out both will be faster.  Only if the American test data is used will the P-51D be introuble, but the La-7 will still be able to escape.

The problem they will have is that the Ki-84 out manuvers them and isn't all that much slower.  It will also have good guns.
Quote
Originally posted by TequilaChaser
I see the Ki-84 fighting the F6f-5 as a draw all coming down to the better pilot of his/her plane.............

Only if the Ki-84 pilot consents to fight the F6F-5's game.  If the Ki-84 plays it smart it will have the advantage.
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Offline Widewing

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A minor reality check. When encountering the Ki-84 during WWII, the F6F maintained and 8/1 kill to loss ratio, about the same as the P-38. F4U's didn't fare as well, killing 6 1/2 for each loss. I expect that the AH2 Ki-84 will do better due to the nature of the game. Nonetheless, I view it is not being any better than the AH2 Spitfire Mk.IX, with the exception of a substantially lower critical altitude.

SPeaking of low-level monsters, I'd love to the P-63 and Spitfire Mk.XII introduced.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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How fast is this thing on the deck? A lot of it will come down to that..

Offline Kweassa

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350~360mph or so.

Offline Redd

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Originally posted by Widewing
A minor reality check. When encountering the Ki-84 during WWII, the F6F maintained and 8/1 kill to loss ratio, about the same as the P-38. F4U's didn't fare as well, killing 6 1/2 for each loss. I expect that the AH2 Ki-84 will do better due to the nature of the game. Nonetheless, I view it is not being any better than the AH2 Spitfire Mk.IX, with the exception of a substantially lower critical altitude.

SPeaking of low-level monsters, I'd love to the P-63 and Spitfire Mk.XII introduced.

My regards,

Widewing



Ww2 stats don't bear out in the MA environment.

If the Ki-84 is faster than the F6-F , turns better than the F6-F and has a reasonable set of cannons, it will be deadly for a hellcats - I think that goes without saying.

There's only one advantage the hellcat will have  - durability - it's going to need it  ;)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2004, 08:29:30 AM by Redd »
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