Panzer IV H vs T-34/76 (43)

[OOZ662]

Screw the Panzers, us Tiger junkies gunna have good eatin

[Mitsu]

Guys, I can't wait to play in Russian theater type Main Arena... (Of course winter version)

[brady]

One of My favorate T 34 picks:

[Arlo]

Originally posted by Pyro
I think it will match up with the IV very well.  Don't discount the sloped armor when looking at the specs.  The T-34/85 would eat up the IV so that will probably roll out when we do the Panther.

We need the Shermie, baybee. NEED the Shermie .... baybee.

[eddiek]

Read somewhere that the Soviets and Germans used different systems of determining penetration values for their cannon.
Not sure how much it would pertain to AH2, but here is one link I found on the subject:

http://www.battlefield.ru/guns/defin_4.html

Midway down the page is an brief explanation as to why Soviet penetration values appeared to be lower than their German counterparts.

[artik]

Why T-34 was one of the best Tanks of WW2

[list=1]

• Armor - the placement of armor was very good - the high angles had given very good defence against enemy canon rounds.
• Small Turret - reduced chances to kill it.
• The russion armor was better then german one - the russian armor of same size was stronger then same of germans. Germans had no good armor technologies as russian had. That was very important factor - one of the reasons germans had lost lots of Tigers at Kursk.
• Speed - very important factor.

The T-34 were used long period after WW2. Even germans had used captured T-34 widly - they knew well the perfomances of this tank.

I don't know how the tank will be modeled in AH but historicaly it was very good tank.

I don't know wich one 76 or 85 model but they also could deal with Tigers. And germans were very surprised by their abilities agains Tigers.

[mipoikel]

The most famous military photo ever in Finland. Photographed July 1944 during
the Battle of Tali-Ihantala. Destroyed tank in photo is Soviet T-34, known amongst
Finnish soldiers as "Sotka". This photo is a sort of "Symbol of All Finnish
Defence Victories"

[GRUNHERZ]

Pyro how will you guys model the T34/76 two man turret and its limitations?

[memnon]

Originally posted by Karnak
Panzer IV H
Engine: Maybach HL 120 TRM
Maximum speed: 23.6mph
Cross Country: 9.9mph
Turning Radius: 19.42ft
Ground Pressure: 12.658lbs/inē
Weight: 50,000lbs?
Length w/gun: 23ft 3in
Height: 8ft 9.5in
Width: 9ft 5in
ARMOR
Hull Front, Upper: 80mm@12°
Hull Front, Lower: 80mm@14°
Hull Sides, Upper: 30mm@0°
Hull Sides, Lower: 30mm@0°
Hull Rear: 20mm@8° & 11°
Hull Top: 12mm@85°-90°
Hull Bottom: 10mm@90°
Turret Front: 50mm@10°
Turret Sides: 30mm@26°
Turret Rear: 30mm@15°
Turret Top: 14mm@84°-90°
MAIN ARMAMENT
Gun: 75mm KwK 40 L/48
Muzzle Velocity, PzGr 40: 3,248ft/sec
Armor Penetration at 100m, 30°, PzGr 40: 143mm
Armor Penetration at 500m, 30°, PzGr 40: 120mm
Armor Penetration at 1000m, 30°, PzGr 40: 97mm
Armor Penetration at 1500m, 30°, PzGr 40: 77mm

T-34/76 (43)
Engine: W-2-34
Maximum speed: 34mph
Cross Country: 25mph
Turning Radius: 25.3ft
Ground Pressure: 10.24lbs/inē
Weight: 68,122lbs
Length w/gun: 22ft 1in
Height: 8ft 8in
Width: 9ft 7in
ARMOR
Hull Front, Upper: 47mm@60°
Hull Front, Lower: 45mm
Hull Sides, Upper: 40-45mm
Hull Sides, Lower: 45mm
Hull Rear: 45mm
Hull Top: 20mm
Hull Bottom: 15-20mm
Turret Front: 70mm
Turret Sides: 52mm
Turret Rear: 52mm
Turret Top: 16mm
MAIN ARMAMENT
Gun: 76.2mm F-34 1942 L/41.2
Muzzle Velocity, BR-350P: 3,166ft/sec
Armor Penetration at 100m, 90°, BR-350P: 92mm
Armor Penetration at 500m, 90°, BR-350P: 60mm


Note: Tanks are not my area and all data has been taken from the all knowing Internet, and we all know how reliable that is.  Armor sloping is given if I found data for it, if it lacks data it does not mean that it is flat 90°.

If you don't me asking Karnak where did you get your info?

[Squire]

Not sure where you get your armor info from artik, but the German armor was as good or better quality than the Russian armor was. The Germans losing Tigers at Kursk had nothing to do with "low quality armor". I have never read this before in any book I have ever seen on the subject.

As for the T-34/76 and the MkIVH series they are an interesting comparison. The MkIVH has the better gun, a 5 man crew and good radios (that was important), but the T-34/76 did what the Russians needed: a good uncomplicated design will an adequate gun and good armor protection for its weight, low ground pressure for operating in the snow, and it was reliable and easy to operate with new crews. They both did what their respective countries needed of them.

As a fighting vehicle the MkIVH is the more advanced in terms of its tactical abilities (esp with a veteran crew), but the T-34/76 is close enough, and the Russians built them in the 1000's, as did the Allies with the Sherman design.

[MOIL]

All this data and input is great!

Panzer IV H
Engine: Maybach HL 120 TRM
Maximum speed: 23.6mph
Cross Country: 9.9mph
Turning Radius: 19.42ft
Ground Pressure: 12.658lbs/inē
Weight: 50,000lbs?
Length w/gun: 23ft 3in
Height: 8ft 9.5in
Width: 9ft 5in
ARMOR
Hull Front, Upper: 80mm@12°
Hull Front, Lower: 80mm@14°
Hull Sides, Upper: 30mm@0°
Hull Sides, Lower: 30mm@0°
Hull Rear: 20mm@8° & 11°
Hull Top: 12mm@85°-90°
Hull Bottom: 10mm@90°
Turret Front: 50mm@10°
Turret Sides: 30mm@26°
Turret Rear: 30mm@15°
Turret Top: 14mm@84°-90°
MAIN ARMAMENT
Gun: 75mm KwK 40 L/48
Muzzle Velocity, PzGr 40: 3,248ft/sec
Armor Penetration at 100m, 30°, PzGr 40: 143mm
Armor Penetration at 500m, 30°, PzGr 40: 120mm
Armor Penetration at 1000m, 30°, PzGr 40: 97mm
Armor Penetration at 1500m, 30°, PzGr 40: 77mm

T-34/76 (43)
Engine: W-2-34
Maximum speed: 34mph
Cross Country: 25mph
Turning Radius: 25.3ft
Ground Pressure: 10.24lbs/inē
Weight: 68,122lbs
Length w/gun: 22ft 1in
Height: 8ft 8in
Width: 9ft 7in
ARMOR
Hull Front, Upper: 47mm@60°
Hull Front, Lower: 45mm
Hull Sides, Upper: 40-45mm
Hull Sides, Lower: 45mm
Hull Rear: 45mm
Hull Top: 20mm
Hull Bottom: 15-20mm
Turret Front: 70mm
Turret Sides: 52mm
Turret Rear: 52mm
Turret Top: 16mm
MAIN ARMAMENT
Gun: 76.2mm F-34 1942 L/41.2
Muzzle Velocity, BR-350P: 3,166ft/sec
Armor Penetration at 100m, 90°, BR-350P: 92mm
Armor Penetration at 500m, 90°, BR-350P: 60mm

Armor - the placement of armor was very good - the high angles had given very good defence against enemy canon rounds.

Small Turret - reduced chances to kill it.

The russion armor was better then german one - the russian armor of same size was stronger then same of germans. Germans had no good armor technologies as russian had. That was very important factor - one of the reasons germans had lost lots of Tigers at Kursk.

Speed - very important factor.

It has a much less effective HE shell. About 60%.
The T34 has 70mm of equivilent frontal hull armour. Not even including the superior quality of the german steel.
The Panzer IV has 90 mm equivelent.
The T34 penetrates 71mm at 500 meters
The Panzer IV penetrates 114 at 500 meters. 85mm at 1000 meters.64mm at 2000m....
if they model them correctly it will not be fun to fight Panzer IVHs in T34-76s.

No AAMG

Not to mention. Way slower rate of fire because it has a 2 man turrent crew. The comander is the loader. The only reasonable way to model that would be to limit the rate of fire to 1 per minute if the comanders position is used. T34-76s where fought buttoned up.

The T34-85 is equivilent to the late model Panzer IV.
Sure the 76 model and the Panzer IV can kill each other. But the advantage is much to the favour of the Panzer.


BUT, it's all just about useless if the GV's arn't modeled and damage modeled correctly

[715]

"MAIN ARMAMENT
Gun: 76.2mm F-34 1942 L/41.2
Muzzle Velocity, BR-350P: 3,166ft/sec
Armor Penetration at 100m, 90°, BR-350P: 92mm
Armor Penetration at 500m, 90°, BR-350P: 60mm"

My copy of "The T34 Russian Battle Tank" by Hughes and Mann, MBI Publishing, gives the penetration for the BR-350P as 92 mm at 500m, not 100m.  It mentions the BR-350P round was specifically introduced in response to the Panzer IV H in the spring of '43.  The T34 should be a worthy adversary for the Panzer IV H, as it was in real life, if we get this round.  The book lists the penetration of the previous round, the BR-350A as 69mm at 500m.

715

[ubadger]

Originally posted by Pongo

The T34 has 70mm of equivilent frontal hull armour.

The Panzer IV has 90 mm equivelent.

47mm@60° is equivilent to 94 mm@90°, not 70mm.

[SELECTOR]

the sloping armour makes all the difference.. what ever the raw stats say it dosn't take into accoutn how much of a difference the sloping armour makes..
i watched a tv programme a few weeks ago on this subject and it is amazing how much the S/A  deflectc the shells as they come in..

on a different point, didnt the t34 have a hand cranked turret?
 will the wide tracks of the t34 be an advantage over the tiger/panzer.ie will the terrain be fixed to allow this major design advantage to be used..

[Pongo]

It has little effect beyond the increase in effective thickness.


I was taught to divide the slope into 90 then mulitply the actual mm by that amount.

90 div 60 = 1.5 * 45 = 70 or so....
To double the effective armour you would need a 45 % angle on the plate. Or thats what I was taught.

By the soviets own numbers. The 76mm  41.5 calibre gun on a T34-76 has an 80% chance of penetrating a verticle steel plate 75mm thick at 500 meters.
At 100 meters that number raises to 86mm. Still not enough to promis a kill on a Panzer IVh lower hull but obviosly there is a chance even at 500 and particularly on the gun mantle.





The Panzer IV with an L48 dominates a 76mm T34. Much greater kill distance, much better fighting tank in everything but profile and ground preasure.

The T34 was not what some think it was.
On the battle field it was slower then German Panzer IIIs and IVs.
"Soviet engineers were surprised by Pz-III's maximum speed. It was far superior and could run up to 69.7 km/h whereas the T-34's best result was 48.2 km/h. The BT-7, which was used as a standard model, could run on wheels at only 68.1 km/h. The report of those tests indicates that the Pz-III had better suspension, a high quality of German optics, a handy layout of ammunition and radio, and a reliable engine and transmission."

Thats a wartime soviet assessment.

The T34-76 will have a greatly inferior gun to the Panzer IVh, inferior tactical speed and inferior armour on its front hull. And no AAMG and only a 2 man turrent.

Having it the standard soviet tank instead of the T34-85 is a mistake.(unless you allow a player to take platoons of AI ones like we do for bombers)

And that is aside from the absolute helplessness of the T34-76 vs the Tiger 1. At least the T34-85 would only be as helpless as the Panzer IV.  Not twice as helpless like the T34-76 would be.