No (more) guns please - we're British

[SC-Sp00k]

Im beginning to wonder Mav as to what it was you actually did as a cop when I read your responses with your gun pro ala carte twisted interpretations thrown in.  Think back to when a Crim read one of your briefs before court and "suddenly found" that imaginery loophole that was going to shatter the prosecution brief and save his godless prettythang.  Thats what im interpreting in your posts.  Please read my posts. Ignore the "Hollywood" spin on 10 year old uzi toters and sort out the meat from the potatoes. The training is not about what was said in my posts, but more about what was not said.  Ive no reason to doubt you are who you say you are. Ive read your posts before.  So go back to thinking like a cop for a little bit and not like a pro-gun lobbyist.

Everytime I read a post from Laz, whilst he attempts to justify his point of view in the populations holding of firearms for self defence, it reminds me of the old western movies where the townsfolk gather up their arms to beat off the incoming Cowboy desperados who number 4 against the towns population of 100.
He sounds like a Cowboy. He may wear a white hat, but he is still just another Cowboy with a gun.

At no point, have I used the word "elitist" in describing Police training. At no point have I denigrated Joe Schmo, average US citizen by infering complete stupidity and an inadequacy to use a firearm and your complete disregard for the content of my arguement with regards to training disciplines and the alternative solutions that encompass a conflict resolution package which exceeds, the use of deadly force, baffles me.

I dont mean any disrespect, but im guessing your 10 year absence from the job has been a long one for you. Times have changed. In particular, Use of Force.

Laz.  Sweet mother of god man, im not even sure why im debating the topic with you. You sir, a quite politely,...full of it.
"You cant out shoot me. Im so much better with a gun than you and I know women who can outshoot you" are childrens book arguements.  Its like screaming, "me me me me meeeee"

Give it up man. Its a pathetic unsubstantiated cry for help. Its not an intelligient arguement in the gun debate.  Your attempt to turn the debate into a personal one will last the length of this post and no more. Ive long ago learnt whats its like trying to argue to one of the "wannabee" brigade.

Laz, Lets get back to the facts shall we and save the "me me me" cries of self ego bolstering for those unfortunates who have to deal with you in real life and probably have no way of escaping out of the elevator.







Oh...and im willing to bet an hour of my being tied down and forced to listen to you telling me how wonderful you are, that I can cane your ego blistering ar$e on any shooting range, in any country on any day of the week.

spook... what is it about australians that you feel makes them so inferior to Americans?[

I'll be buggered sideways Laz, but that quote made me laugh out loud. To answer it............Your dreaming mate.

(Note to others)  Please excuse my small self indulgent reply and enjoy the rest of the thread. )

[Excel1]

Originally posted by lazs2
scspook.... you are the one who doesn't trust his own countrymen....  I would say it is you that has the problem... don't they give cops psyc tests down there?    

 

This from a guy who keeps a mini14 for "street sweeping duties"

You can't have much trust in your countrymen, so quit your preaching.

And for the sake of your neighbours it's you that should be getting a psyc test.

Excel

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Toad
...the English ban on handguns didn't do much of anything at all. It was just another member-stroking feel-good political BS move.

You're welcome. Glad to explain it for  ya.

Q. How do you know for sure that the gun problem would not have been twice as bad, but for that ban?

A. You don't. No-one does.


Hmmm, think I'll organise a flu jab. Oh wait, the success rate is not 100%. Forget it.

[lazs2]

spook... I am sure that it is not just me that has noticed that you have no arguement other than your elite status as a cop giving you insight into the minds of not onoly your countrymen but the minds of people in America that you not only have never been around but seem to have no understaning at all off.

I have given you the facts...you have given your feelings.  My facta are solid... your fellings are tainted by a superior attitude that is unwaranted.   99& of your population could easily be trained in safe gun handling and would be law abiding citizens.

as for telling maverick that he doesn't know about U.S. cops or that he should "think like a cop" (comeon buddy it's us against them bull).... well... I see perhaps 100 cops a month at the shooting range that is on the facility under my care... I also see concealled  carry holders and swat and all manner of shooters... they are all the same...  just people and Rank and

file cops hold exactly the oppossite views about armed citizens that you do....  Rank and file cops overwhelmingly support citizens rights to be armed and often suggest that they do so.

My point about you finishing in the middle of the pack in any gun course is that you are not special.   You have no special right to go armed in an unarmed society.   I don't trust you any more or less than my neighbors.   In fact... you seem a little tightly wound and easily touched off if your authority and superiority are even questioned.   You frankl, you seem like a nut to me.

Your low opinion of your fellow citizen (subject?) is something that only the most burned out and worst cops here have.

Mvericks take on things match mine and the data..yours doesn't... we live here... you don't.  

sooo... just taking the data.... where is the slaughter caused by the milloons of concealled carry permit holders here in the U.S.?   How dose it stack up against your "feelings"?
lazs

[Leslie]

Police round here are in favor of the 2nd Amendment.  Long as you obey the law and have a permit, it's great with them.

The concealed permits are very restrictive.   Can't carry one in a bar or to a sporting event, or anywhere else where there is a large gathering of people.  But everywhere else is ok.

It's a concealed permit, because if you show the weapon, that constitutes intimidation and is against the law.

In realty it is a very big hassle to carry a gun.  You have to give it your undivided attention and have much respect for it and what it represents.   Whatever the reasons are for carrying, it is unwise to do so if you don't practice on a regular basis, or if you have any doubt you would use the weapon.

I don't think even Lazs has shot someone, though I may be wrong.  The truth is, no matter how much training you have with a handgun, you don't know whether you'd use it or not.  

Never ever ever show a gun to intimidate someone.  You'd better be ready to kill, or they could just take it away from you and shove it up your ass.




Les

[lazs2]

shooting someone is an absolute last resort.   Everyone except criminals understand this.

but... spookie knows all about things cause he "feels" it... he denegrates mavericks service as a policeman when It very likely that maverick has encountered upset citizens that also happen to own firearms....  thousands of times more often than spookie...

spookie lives in a country where guns are banned yet people still commit murder there.... we live in a country where millions of citizens have concealled carry permits and go around armed and they cause no problems at all.... The FACT is that they are the most law abiding group ever studied.

spookie offers no data to back up his claims that arming citizens would cause wholesale slaughter.    His only reason being that only people like himself are capable of handling the power of the big bas boogey man.... the firearm.   It should be restricted to royalty and elite cops.

Just like Mav is doing.... cops here would laugh at spookie.... if they didn't get angry instead.

lazs

[beet1e]

Originally posted by lazs2
we live in a country where millions of citizens have concealled carry permits and go around armed and they cause no problems at all.... The FACT is that they are the most law abiding group ever studied.

Then where do your annual 10,000 gun homicides come from?

You're still living in a fool's paradise, Lazs. Sure, it would be fine if you and others like you were the only ones in possession of fireams....

...but it isn't like that, as well you know. Or at least you would, but...

[Maverick]

Spook,

I was a street cop for my entire career. That's where I liked to be and had only a few temporary assignments inside the station while recovering from injuries. Good enough for you?

As to the uzi toting 10 year olds, that's from your posts. Please note I did not bring that up until I pointed out how silly your statement was after you alleged it occurs here all the time in the states. As far as "hollywood spin" is concerned it seems you have swallowed that little bit from the group that likes to use fantasy to support their position. Much like your comments about how unsafe it is here in the states and how insecure you would feel. That is as offensive to me as it would be to you if I said all Aussies run around with large knives strapped on, aligator vests and kill crocodiles by stabbing them in the head after a flying leap onto their back.

I did not make briefs for court. Lawyers in our system prepare legal briefs. Police Officers make reports. Briefs contain opinions for court review.

I have no idea about a criminal having a "godless prettythang". Their choice of religion is irrelevant, both to me and the court system, unless they commit an illegal act while "practicing" their "religion".

If you are "interpreting" my posts, you are using the wrong interpretations. I tend to speak very plainly and say what I mean. I do not adopt a "personna" on the bbs and abhor trollers. Don't "interpret" my posts, just read or ignore. Using your inferences about something I do not say or imply is counterproductive and attempt to place words in my mouth.

Cops here think like people do. There is no major change in thought processes when you are hired. Cops here are people first, not robots to be programmed. There is no reason to put the general population on a pedestal as you state. The vast majority of the general population is rather productive, law abiding and all around good folks. The minority who are not so and prey on the rest get all the publicity.

My retirement is not that long and I doubt that I am out of touch with the concept of use of force. Frankly I would consider myself more in touch with use of force in the states than you. I've been here and you are so paranoid about being here that you would need to have "eyes in the back of your head open". It doesn't bother me to be a member of the general population now that I'm retired. Based on the tone of your posts I would hazard a guess that your leaving the job might be more than a bit of a let down. There IS life after retirement and it's quite rewarding without the uniform and job.

[lazs2]

same question to you beetle.... where is the data that shows allowing citizens to carry weapons concealled causes all this slaughter you speak of?  How am I being blind to it?

I contend that it is you who are unwilling to see the facts because you have preconcieved notions.

I will concede that anyone who decides to own, and especially carry, a firearm should get as much instruction as they can..   I believe it is their duty to understand the grave responsability they are taking on....

I believe that if all firearms suddenly disappeared from the U.S. we would still have about the same amount of homicides but that crime would increase dramaticly.    I have no proof of this since it has never happened but I do have proof of the reverse.... when citizens here are given the right to carry concealled weapons.... crime goes down in that state.

lazs

[Toad]

Originally posted by beet1e
Q. How do you know for sure that the gun problem would not have been twice as bad, but for that ban?

 

You had next to nothing gun homicide before the ban and you've still got next to nothing. (Minor squabbles over stats notwithstanding.)

That demonstrates to me that your ban really accomplished nothing.

It's as plain as Big Ben and it's what Laz and others have been saying here for years.

Only the law-abiding gun owners would comply with the ban and those guys never were a problem anyway.

Your criminals never turned in their guns and never will. They were and still are the problem.

Congrats... you've successfully disarmed the folks that were never a threat, while making the criminals even more dangerous as they are now the only ones with guns now.

[deSelys]

Originally posted by DrDea
Sounds to me that you fit the "75%" group just fine till you were trained diffrently.

Exactly my point. You need some basic skills and a lot of training to be able to handle, carry and use a firearm with a reasonable safety for the innocents (and even then, you won't know for sure until you're put to 'the test'...).

I wonder how many concealed carrying citizens have received the same kind of training that I have had (general shooting with shooters moving simultaneously along the range, movie-shooting, Simunition FX exercises...) which is still far from being perfect.

Using a gun according to the law as a last resort measure is a bit more than letting fly some brass at the range.

Once again, I'm not against it. But if you don't regulate those permits tightly, all you'll win is a huge anti-gun wave at the next serious incident (mismatched use of force or worse some idiot spraying and praying in self-defence).

And if you had really so much trust in your fellow citizens, you wouldn't need a gun in the first place.

[Dowding]

Thanks for not explaining your post in any way, AKIron. I'll revert back to my original interpretation.

"...you brits stop going on and on about our guns...' consists of Beetle. One man. On some obscure internet BBS.

Your paranoia knows no depths... let me assure you that most British people couldn't care less about your gun ownership rights.

As for British guns - I think the controls are too tight and are politically motivated. But frankly, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. There are bigger fish to fry as far as unreasonable changes to British legislature goes - let's start with the anti-terrorism laws...

[Wolf14]

I notice alot of folks think the only reason that we American gun lovers want guns is for self defense reasons only. I wonder if they ever take into account that alot of us use guns for recreational enjoyment.

Yes I can use one of my guns in a self defense situation.
No I do not look to shoot somebody everytime I walk out my door.
Yes I do try to stay in condition orange and be aware of my surroundings.
No I do not hunt on a regular basis.
Yes I do go often when money permits and participate in the art and enjoyment of shooting.

Yet I am told that somebody else who has doesnt have a clue who I am that they know whats best for me and my other fellow law abiding shooters. These same people are the same ones who in alot of cases come across that they are above everybody else and are on a sick power trip. They are also the ones who when you ask will truly believe the police can be at their residence in time to save them in the unfortunate event of a violent crime.

BAM they are stabbed at with the common kitchen knife!
BAM they are stabbed again
BAM they are stabbed again

They have been struck three times. All strikes will be fatal. It wasnt with a gun.

Where is the phone to call the law?
Where is the law?
They sure arent there saving their butt
The victim will die in a matter of a few minutes.
The law turns out to be at least five minutes away and the victim has 3 minutes to live.
Damage already has been done and whats been done cant be undone.

Somewhere in the struggle I am pretty sure a shot could have been gotten off by either the victim or a by stander to do one of two things or both.

1.) prevent further injury to victim
2.) prevent criminal from getting away and attacking future victims

If I was the victim I would be dying with some satisfaction knowing that the sorry SOB aint gonna be harming somebody else.

Law enforcement officials cannot be everywhere you are all the time to be there to assist you in your time of need.

So give up your guns. Go ahead the world is a better place with out them. Your safer therefore I am safer. You never enjoyed/ participated in the art of shooting and therefore we shouldn't either. You have the ultimate trust that the law will be there to protect you in your time of need and therefore we should have the same trust. LEave your doors unlocked and give everything you ever worked for the the pond scum that enters you home and says I want this and that. Tell the scum to have a go at your wife and your daughter while your at it as well.

To all those that feel we as a nation do not need guns for what ever reason I tell you to just lay down and announce to the world of evil doers to have their way with you. I tell you this because I know whats best for you.

[AKIron]

Originally posted by Dowding
Thanks for not explaining your post in any way, AKIron. I'll revert back to my original interpretation.

"...you brits stop going on and on about our guns...' consists of Beetle. One man. On some obscure internet BBS.

Your paranoia knows no depths... let me assure you that most British people couldn't care less about your gun ownership rights.

As for British guns - I think the controls are too tight and are politically motivated. But frankly, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. There are bigger fish to fry as far as unreasonable changes to British legislature goes - let's start with the anti-terrorism laws...

I didn't realize my post needed any explaining Dowding. Which part didn't you understand? Maybe you are reading too much into it?

BTW, I too am only one man on "some obscure internet BBS" and I'm confident I can find more threads here with anti-gun posts from Brits. While I have no confidence that any anti-gun zealot will be influenced here by anyone, I still reserve the right to make my comments, banal as they may seem to you. Feel free to do the same. However, if you want to direct your irritation at our independence at me specifically be aware that I may respond in kind.

[vorticon]

Then where do your annual 10,000 gun homicides come from?

criminals carrying legal guns, and using them illegally.

i wonder what would happen if everyone was given mandatory gun training, and prison time for gun crime was doubled.