Training Arena etiqette

[WW]

I would like to enquire about a couple situations I have run into.
My First encounter with Hmble, I asked if I could engage, He agreed. I dropped on him and AirRev, shot me down!
When I asked Hmble what that was all about, he replied, "I pay him to keep my 6 clear"

Interesting training tactic.

Almost daily, I've come into the arena and found the runway egged. In my experience, this means you cant use it. I had the pleasure today of watching AirRev egg is from end to end in a 17 from very low altitude. When I asked Hmble if this was acceptable, he indicated it was fine as long as it didn't interfere with normal flight operations. I told him I was unable to take-off. He said he had just done so. So I tried. Ofcourse, I began taking damage. Then as I'm rolling down the runway, I loose all my gear in a spray of bullets from Furbalz who then circles to finish the job.
Today, practicing landings at an empty field, I landed, taxied into the hanger only to be shot by a spit taxiing behind me (it was Ace02)
My Friend Wiz who is just learning is completely fed-up with the arena after only 4 days.

I don't know what you guys call it, but the term unrelenting does come to mind. especially when a trainer is helping the process, "I pay him to keep my 6 clear"

In Hmbles favor, we did fly clear of AirRev and have a meaningful and productive one-on-one session.

So whats up with that?

[humble]

WW, it was av8r that got you way back when. he's a great guy who spends a lot of time in TA helping out/dueling/furballing. That was an inside joke and he immediately backed off.

Today, what I told you is that it's not a TOS violation (and i'm not an enforcer per se) to bomb a runway...you cant interfere with general flight op's is what i said. Now plenty of folks took of from A1 repeatedly so obviously there where very few problems. I spent at least 4 hrs in TA today and all in all was very friendly. Almost no vulching and certainly zero harassment that I saw.

Only issue i see is clarification of firing rules. To me plenty of room for everyone..i I do think bomber practice should be away from main flight area but there was no real damage that I saw.

To the best of my knowledge airRev did not drop again on A1. The vulching was very limited and everyone backed off when "warned". Only possible problem i'd agree with was Ace02..but that more of a rudeness issue. I didn't notice a lot of complaints...but then again I was "teaching"...and I'm using the term loosely ...a good 2-3 hrs so I may of missed something.

[humble]

As for impact in the training area...if i'm a negative influence in there i'll be happy to step down at the request of any other trainer/AH staff member. I certainly do not want to impact this sim in any negative manner.

[Citabria]

hehe humble we all still love you relax  

[Minotaur]

I have brought this up in the past.  What I feel we need is one more arena.  This arena would be strictly a "Free For All" enviorment.  This arena would provide non-stop action, where anything goes.

I have even thought that it would be a way for HTC to provide an intermediate price structure.  $30 a month for access to all arenas.  $15-20 a month for access to this  "Instant Action Arena".

Personally I like the Free for All at times.  It is certainly a nice change of pace from the MA.  However; currently I am an Aces High Trainer and I typically look for players in need of help first.  I engage in the Free for All mostly to pass the time and when I am pretty sure of what is going on.

I can't say that I have had any bad experiences in the TA, but I can very well see how it can get out of hand.  What I typically see is players who are not yet fitting into the MA, but crave engagement.  They really don't care who they offend, because at this piont they are just testing out the game.

This is like my brother who I was helping with the game for the first time.  The first thing he wants to know is "How do I shoot the guns" and "What can I shoot them at?".  Take offs, landings and BFM is secondary.  

Good Luck in the Un-Friendly Training Skies.  

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

[air_spro]

Just for the record , AirRev is not in our squad . There are lots of differant Air etc and we never have a problem with other like spelling names . The only way to find out is check the squad link or here .
 www.airsquadron.com  

bty airsid and airgard are now flying AH . At least one more to come 8-).
spro  <---- happy

 

[WW]

Hmble,
Sorry if I used AirRev's name for the other scenario, Av8tr is a name I havn't seen much of. AirRev has been vulching me (and my friend who just joind) since day one. I think I might actually have him on film at it.. I'm not sure.

When I told you I would try taking off, Furbalz shot me rolling on the runway after I bounced out of the line of potholes. Then, while I sat there on the runway stopped, he circled back for to finish the job. Again, you where 7.0 away. I was also killed later in a hanger. All this while you where in the arena. YES, you couldn't see it all and NO you shouldn't be expected to see it all. BUT I do strongly object to your suggestions that it's not that bad in this and other threads.

Perhaps it's the difference in approach. Certainly, an inside joke like the one a few days ago is gonna leave an outsider wondering what the deal is right? My reaction to it was to wonder if I should try again. and remains so to this day.

Later today, when I came on, I noticed you where being more proactive and asking folks not to hit A1. Reasonable since a brand new individual is gonna come out there and not know what the heck is going on OR what to do.

I guess having only been there 5 days, and having gone through it, I'm a little sensitized to it. This stuff is BUSINESS AS USUAL and your inability to see it (as the only available authority in there sometimes) diminishes how big a problem it is.

Certaily, allowing your buddie to do a newbie like that for an inside joke says something about how the newbies are viewed.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think your a bad guy. Not at all. Hey, as the only one in there sometimes in authority, the vetrans think your fantastic. Unfortunately, the newbies being used for target practice don't think its so cool.

If your ever interested, I have films of me taking off and asking to not be attacked. I became a bloody magnet! I've got all kinds of films like that. Interesting that a newbies only here for 5 days should have so many films of something happening that rarely happens isn't it?

BTW, no one likes to be a snitch. No one generally reports it until they're completely ticked off. Or they just log off. I know thats how my buddy handles it. Then he comes to me and tells me how frustrating the arena was.

As for adding another arena to solve the problem, that may be nice, but I doubt vetrans go into the training arena and start hitting newbies just because they would like a nice free for all place. I think it's more about people who are tired of having to work for their kills and come into the training arena for some easy prey. Someone told me I should be honored that the people want to take me on. It's pretty hard to feel honored when Goldwing or someone else is sitting on the end of the strip in a panzer picking you off. (I think I have film of that too) or when people are taking advantage of the fact that your engaged in a fight to drop onto your six and put you down. The Av8tr insider joke is a case in point but there are plenty of others. One of the other trainers has been heard of a couple from me.

[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-22-2000).]

[Minotaur]

WW;

Have you tried changing fields and/or changing teams?  Try going to a field in a teams land that is desolate.  Most "Free for All'ers" will congregate at one airfield.

Sometimes this is a way to get the peace that you need.  I often do this when working with some one, to get them off alone.  This way I have fewer interuptions.

BTW look me up in the TA or the MA.  I would be happy to help you out.

Good Luck!  

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

[WW]

Hey Minotaur!
Actually, I mentioned that I flew to an empty field. In was an empty sector. Landed, taxied to the hanger and was followed.

So Yeah, I have tried that. My mistake was even taking off from A1. Ace02 went well out of his way for the kill.

The real problem seems to be noone asking if they can attack. They jsut do. You can't have a little one on one with someone to try to figure out what your doing right or wrong, because if you do it near A1, you get nailed by a third party. If you go to another field, it's empty. And most folks aren't gonna want to leave the collection of people to play with.

But if I want to practice my landings, Air to ground attacks, bombing, I can go to really remote fields for that and I'm generally OK. The targets are poor and a nice dummy tank range would be nice. But if I want to play with someone I didn't bring with me, I have to hang out at A1.

I must say, I was flying a 17 earlier today and found it really refreshiing when a fella asked if he could attack me. I told him it was OK but ended up augering the plane since I knew the other 4 dots in the area wouldn't leave it at just to the two of us.

Looks like the bulk of my training will be in MA

[-ammo-]

You know WW--I would like to chime in on this one.

I will have to agree with you. I was getting ready for a duel yesterday and stepped in to the arena for a little practice. Posted what i wanted to do and decided that A1 best choice because of the altittude. This turned out to be a mistake It seems that everyone was flying there. No problem i say--i tell the guy to roll south climb to 17K and reverse and we'll cold merge at 15K. Ill go south and do the opposite. Well I get off the ground OK but he gets vulched on Take off.  He gives up and tells me on prrivate a quick apology. The current train of thought was that 1 was a free for all base and you are subject to attack. Well I ask humble if he would like to do some merge's he says yea but in a minute--. I then just go along with the crowd. I even got new guys (no offence to you--I dont think you just no anybetter) that are shooting at me as we roll down the runway  Thats right--two of us are taking off and the guy behind me is shooting at me.
I make a suggestion to him that we should get airborn before shooting at each other

OK having said all that--

questions--who decides what field will be the free for all field? Does the free for all folks have precedence over the folks wanting training? do the trainers actually have any authority here? Are they just helpers without any means to stop irrational behavior?  Does the trainers have any tools to enforce ( ie--can you boot someone from the arena)

Finally--Is this the impression we (or HTC) wants to give new guys? They are attacked mercilously and do not know  any "ettiquite" in the flight sim world. To them after flying in the TA they do not know what WWII air combat was they do however get a few short moments of stick time before getting shot down. And when they complain they are quickly told to go to another field--this one is a FFA. So shouldnt the new guys be the center of attention?

 

[indian]

WW Mino is talking about the .move command you just type .move and the field number to go to a new field.If you have film of someone vulching you and you asking them not to send it to HTC they will deal with the person We have no real power in the arena except to ask thats it. This game will progress to the point were there will be CM's watching the arena and trainers will have powers to use in the training arena.

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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
  1st Aces High Trainer Corps.
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage

[Kieren]

Trainers are like anyone else when it comes to powers. We have no ability to remove people, change the arena settings, etc. I didn't want this power before, but more and more I see it as a necessary evil.

This is my viewpoint of the TA, gathered in slice o' life we call the 8:30-11:30 PM EST time period...

There are always 12-20 guys on. Five will want help NOW. The rest will be at the default field in melee. This means I am juggling 5 conversations, trying to help one or more people, and watching the traffic buffer. (anyone wanting to see what it's like to be HT or Pyro should try this!)

Then comes the "Hey, let us out of the hangar!"

"Please don't vultch" says I.

And so on.

I have been there when WW is on, and he has a very valid point. He is a very good pilot AND an AW trainer, so he knows a bit about what he's talking about.

Now from a personal standpoint, people leave me alone more-or-less (except Jase, and he's a dog  ). Sometimes I pop on the runway at the main base and sit for a few to see who will strafe me. If/when that happens I will ask for that behavior to stop. If it doesn't I use the only power that is available to me- shoot the offender down. Every time they are caught in the behavior, down they go. The trouble is, this is tying up time that would be better spent in helping others. Last night was an example. I lift off, am talking to someone that had a joystick problem, and see tracers bounce around me. I looked back in time to see a B26 slicing in from the rear quarter. I was in a 1C, full rockets, so I dumped the rockets and barrel rolled around to a position right over his head. I dropped on him and let him have it. Flying around a few minutes later (with him promising I would not land) and I see the same B26 moving in from a low 11. I popped up, he passes under and assumes a six approach on B17 nearby. I hit him again.

"You cheater!" he yells.

"Why?"

"You ambushed me!"

"Didn't you try to ambush me?  "

"Well, yeah..."

I don't think he was going to stop, and I could have easily killed him all night.

Here is the funny part of the whole night; at times the melee was "civilized" as in, everyone at A1 knew what was going on, and accepted it (I think Tern was a bit upset at times). I don't normally get involved in melees, preferring to watch the buffer and behavior, but I had some killers after my pelt (Citabria, Jase, Dogftr).

And it was fun.

Seems to me it works like this:

• Default fields will be FFA
• Anyone wishing for training needs to secure a trainer or someone that will help and move to a quieter field
• furballers should not follow trainees to quiet field

This has worked for me, the trouble is how would a new guy know this?

There is another solution to the problem; turn killshooter on in the TA. This type of abuse will drop to "0" then. Of course it will get in the way of training, but it may be necessary if people cannot cooperate.  

[sourkraut]

I recently posted on this as well. My advise :
1. Move to airfield not presently occupied.
2. Let any other pilots that show up at the airfield that you do not want to be bothered.
3. If they shoot you, tell them to go away.
4. if they don't or otherwise interfere -like continue to buzz you. Film it and send it to HTC.

I had a recent incident with this. I asked the offender to go away, but he continued. I was trying to practice slice-backs and had this annoying jerk on my 6 most of the time.
He flies for knights and will never, ever get a six clear from me.

Sour


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Sourkraut
JG-2 Richthofen

"Hey - someone has to be the target...."

 

[This message has been edited by sourkraut (edited 04-22-2000).]

[Sharky]

deleted

[This message has been edited by Sharky (edited 04-22-2000).]

[-ammo-]

trainers---plz dont take what i said as an attack on you. I think you guys are great. I just think the mentality about the Training arena needs some focus. I am in no position to do this I know. I am just the average joe with an opinion--disregard it if you disagree with me.