Author Topic: La-7.....frusteration.....rising..... (Read 5341 times)

LazerTED · « **Reply #15 on:** November 08, 2004, 01:49:43 PM »

I don't think its that hard to kill an la7 seriously. Unless your in the situation where you are running from a horde, and an la7 plus 3 spits are picking away at you.

La7s 1 vs 1 aren't anything special, and the fact that you can't kill one in a ki84 out of all planes, puzzles me. Ki84 feels like another n1k to me, and doesn't seem like a plane that would have difficulty in a 1 vs 1 with an la7.

Karnak · « **Reply #16 on:** November 08, 2004, 01:58:31 PM »

I'd not consider myself inexperienced. I've never had this much trouble with the La-7 in anything other than the Ki-84. They were very worrisome in the Mosquito, but I had a higher success rate in that overweight fighter-bomber than I do in the Ki-84.

humble,

If you are correct in that I am carrying too much speed through the fight (and I have definately lost Ki-84s that way to other fighters) then the Ki-84 is hopeless as I am getting the fight down below 150mph. If it doesn't have adequate elevator authority at 150mph it is worse than the A6M for speed induced control heaviness.

I don't have any film as I am usually too busy by that time to worry about fumbling with the keyboard to turn the film on. It seems that if I turn film on nothing interesting will happen. I've made lots of boring films over the years in AH, but have never got one of my interesting moments on film.

Karnak · « **Reply #17 on:** November 08, 2004, 02:01:23 PM »

Karnak has 3 kills and has been killed 5 times in the Ki-84-Ia against the La-7.

Those three never saw me coming though. They were being dragged, roped or simply were unaware.

humble · « **Reply #18 on:** November 08, 2004, 02:08:18 PM »

It's pretty easy to film stuff....I simply turn it on when I get into Icon range. Something is out of whack...a lala wont turn with you at 150...or 175..or 200...or 225...just that simple. However viewed in three dimensions the world changes. The lala might very well have angles on you...your at 150 and he's at 225 but flying in your oblique vertical. Take a look at the pony vs yak clip...I never "out turned" him...but I out flew him...I never actually was saddled up on him but used the vertical to convert a lag pursuit situation to a lead angle and set up a pretty decent shot window. I'd bet thats whats happening to you....you think your being out turned but your not...simply out ACM'd...your taking an awful tough road by not finding someone to work with.

StarOfAfrica2 · « **Reply #19 on:** November 08, 2004, 02:13:47 PM »

From what I've seen, the Ki-84 and La-7 are pretty close. The La-7 has a better top speed. The Ki-84 outclimbs it and out turns it. If the fight stays close and dirty the Ki-84 should win. Of course pilot skill comes into play. A good La-7 pilot is going to use his speed to extend far enough that he has time to get some alt before the Ki-84 can catch him in the climb. I had a fight the other night vs an La-7 that lasted almost 10 minutes. I closed to within 200 yds of his 6 several times, but always at just the wrong angle. Every time I'd get almost to a firing solution, he'd dive out (always made sure he had air under him to dive away before engaging) and I'd keep up for awhile at 400 out and then slowly lose him. I have my convergence set to 300 and he could get out to 400 before I could line up on him. I dont waste ammo if its 400 yds. or more unless I'm trying to force him to break. At about 2k out he'd climb and I'd gain on him again, then he'd rev. and we'd go round a few times. Then repeat. Finally a group dove in and a pony driver got him.

Karnak · « **Reply #20 on:** November 08, 2004, 02:15:16 PM »

humble,

It may be that, but it sure doesn't look like it when I'm in the fight. Looking over my shoulder it looks like the La-7 just gradually pulls around into position on me.

I've used lag pursuits to kill better turning fighters before and I'd think it would look more distinct from the fighter to be killed.

I'm not giving up by any means, but I am hoping that Pyro fixes the Ki-84's performance at speed. It isn't supposed to be an A6M, it is supposed to be a balance between Western and Japanese fighters in that regards.

The American test praises it for it's light control forces.

The RN noted that it rolled 25% faster than the Seafire.

The Japanese pilots noted that while they'd wanted a fighter like the Western fighters, the Ki-84 was a balance between them and older Japanese fighters.

humble · « **Reply #21 on:** November 08, 2004, 02:24:10 PM »

A film clip will give you two things....your/his "track and accurate speeds. You'd be able to tell exactly whats happening. If your being out turned "in plane" by a lala at low speed then either he has angles and/or he got slower than you and you "pulled thru" his lag position as you slowed....in effect your flying the "outer track" and he's already on the "inner" one...your slowing down to "Get inside" and he's almost at stall but already flying his tightest arc...if you go vertical (urchins spiral climb) he's toast....by pulling in plane with him your flying into his shot window....only thing I can guess without something to look at. Again I strongly suggest you take up TC on his offer...if you happen to see me in MA I'd be happy to fly a few in TA or DA and see whats up...

humble · « **Reply #22 on:** November 08, 2004, 02:32:28 PM »

As a last comment here Karnak....

You keep making this a "plane issue" when its probably a pilot issue. I normally fly iron in the ~30-40 ENY range and cant ever remember saying the plane lost. You can put any pilot in here 1500 out on my 6 in the plane of his/her choice vs me in a Ki-61 and I'm gonna beat em as often as I would on a straight on even merge. The guys who are gonna beat me are just gonna beat me...the others are gonna die most of the time (yea I'll lose a few to the initial snapahot)...look to the pilot (you) not the plane for answers to your problems here.

As an FYI I was 8-1 (as AKhumble) in a Ki-61 vs la-7 last tour...but 17-12 overall.

Mostly got killed in my "jabo" rides 3-2 in D40 jug 0-2 F6F/0-2 P38 etc...again dont know circumstances your fighting under. If I'm dropping ord...I'm usually going in taking out barracks DAr etc...not a high survivability endevour.

dedalos · « **Reply #23 on:** November 08, 2004, 02:34:15 PM »

Karmak

I am talking without having seen your fights so I could be off, but I think you should give it some time to learn everything your plane can do. As far as the lala, I used to fly it a lot. I used to die a lot in it too, until I learned how to fly it. Its IMO the best fighter in the MA. So, since you are not in the best plane and dealling with the best, you need to find something else YOU can do better than the other pilot. One think is sure, if the lala driver knows what he is doing, its not going to be as easy as people make it sound.

Don't focus on what your plane can do better than his. Focus on what you can do better than him. If you do the right thing, is should not matter what he is flying.

ghi · « **Reply #24 on:** November 08, 2004, 02:38:25 PM »

La7 doesn't climb better than ki84, but if i don't get in stupid turn fight ,ki84 can't catch me.
Ki84 has lot of amo and better range, can use it for atack
La7 is still plane for short range,base defence
i think we have 2 planes with good peformances in the same range of alt, but whoever wants can trade the speed of La7 for range ,amo and turn rate of Ki84

Urchin · « **Reply #25 on:** November 08, 2004, 02:39:45 PM »

Yea Karnak, if you want to fool around in the DA or something I'd be happy to show you how I fight them. It tends to lead to a lot of "draws" more than outright kills though, since they can run away at their leisure.

Chitownflyer · « **Reply #26 on:** November 08, 2004, 02:43:19 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by humble
Actually I'd say its the lack of quality la-7 drivers....if your scissoring an la-7 and winning then your dealing with an awful poor lala driver. You scissor a hog vs a good one and your hog will have an apple in its mouth:)....

thats not the only trick in the bag for the hog.. the hog can fly very very slow... with it's big flaps and huge rudder roll authority, I have taken on many La7 in co alt, co equal e fights and most time won and won against la7 drivers that knew their business...

a. Hog can out turn LA7 ( which it turth can turn almost as well as a spitted.

b. Hog can out roll and sissor any la7 driver good or bad. using rudder

c. A Hog can pace a la7 long enough if the la7 tries to book out of a fight to kill it running away while trying to disngage a bad situation..

Don't kid your self I 'v killed many an expericnced La7 not just harp seals... including, if i recall, you a few times...

The hog is very well suited for work in the Main Areana were speed toughness and manuverablity is important...

not many La7drivers have killed me in a fair square up fight with my hog.
Chi

humble · « **Reply #27 on:** November 08, 2004, 03:13:15 PM »

hehe....

everybody has killed me at least a few times...if not more:(

As for the hog....

Well....

1st it wont turn as well as a spitty (even almost) of any flavor....period.

2nd it wont out turn a well flown la-7....period.

Hog does own lala in roll rate (and there for scissor)

The hog is a much better plane on the edge...however only a moron in an la-7 (i.e someone like me) will let you get there.

3rd A hog cant "keep pace" with a lala except when pushed off a cliff....

I agree the hog is one of the best MA planes around (especially the -1).

Now as for your comment and my response....

The scissor is a defensive move utilized to defend against a guns solution...nothing more nothing less. An attacker can elect to accept or refuse the scissors engagement. The lala is a "double superior" plane to the Hog (-1). A competent lala driver (oxymoron) will simply deny the scissors and have lost nothing.

Now since pilot ability is 80%+ of the equation an outstanding pilot in a familiar plane is very difficult to beat. I'm sure you outfly most of the lala's you meet. Dont confuse the issue, your not beating em with a scissors...your simply opening your attack with whatever twitch you use. (added at edit)...I'm always amazed how many folks (talking 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 2) have no idea that I'm trying to kill em when I reverse. I'd just as soon have 1500 behind as ahead....been around long enough to know you think the same way...aggressive pilots win all ties

As for me and the lala, I suck in the thing (nikki also)...simply have never taken the time to really learn em well enough.

As for you and me, you've never killed me in AH2 (or me you)...

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #28 on:** November 08, 2004, 04:29:32 PM »

I have not flown to awful much in this tour prob 14 hrs or so, but my K/D against the La7 is 9 to 1, meaning I been killed once by an La7 and have 9 kills on an La7,
F4U-1 vs La7 = 7 vs 1
F4U-1C vs La7 = 1 vs 0
F4U-1D vs La7 = 1 vs 0

I did not beat these La7s by out turning them, I used out of plane maneuvers, etc..... only 1 fight was drawn to the deck ( because I was already low ) and I was in the F4U-1..after 4 horizontal turns on the deck the La-7 got around on me, notcing this I rolled & reversed the turn to get around on him in the opposite direction to score my kill......

other fights are where La7 is bearing down on me and I use a High G roll over the top, or High G roll underneath maneuver ( type of lag roll ) which pushes the bogey out infront of my 3/9 line......

or your basic high and Low yoyo's, catching them in a snapshot/crossing shot......

The Hog isn't fast, it can't accelerate out of the way of it's on tail, and is not that great of a climber or turner but if you know its quirks and where the edges of the envelope are you can use them to your advantage....same goes for any plane in AH2

edit: just saw where humble mentioned agressive pilots, my theory is if you think you have lost or will lose when you are in a defensive situation, then you WILL! I try my hardest to win regardless if I am missing 1 of my elevators, or flaps, or ailerons, or guns etc........you have not lost until you are teleported back to the tower.......so never give up or let defeat creep its way into your thoughts!

streetstang · « **Reply #29 on:** November 08, 2004, 04:35:38 PM »

The La7 is a monster.

The only things that may give me trouble from time to time in the MA while in flying it is the Spit5 and the Zeeks. Throtle control and flaps (as much as you can whenever you can) and it can hang pretty well with some of the better known turn fighters.

Its almost more fun to take into a furball than the SpitV.