Author Topic: La-7.....frusteration.....rising..... (Read 5338 times)

Fruda · « **Reply #30 on:** November 08, 2004, 04:40:23 PM »

Man, I love the Zeros in dogfights, especially the furballs.

You can turn inside anybody... And nothing is better at 210mph.

Howitzer · « **Reply #31 on:** November 08, 2004, 04:45:05 PM »

The one thing I did notice about it since the new patch came out is that it seems to be able to take more punishment. I came in on an unsuspecting one in a tiffy from a high 6, and counted a great deal of sprites on the top of th plane (at least 8), he snapped the thing to the right, and kept right on flying. Then a pony came in on him, ripped his wing off, and I'm left with an assist. There were a few occurrences this tour I can think of where I just beat the crap out of one, and he just flies around happy as a clam with only 1 aileron missing or something to that affect.

Fruda · « **Reply #32 on:** November 08, 2004, 05:23:31 PM »

More punishment? It seems the same to me.

I ripped an La-7 in half with about 100 50cal shots from my P-51D two days ago. I remember doing the exact same thing about a month and a half ago.

JB73 · « **Reply #33 on:** November 08, 2004, 05:43:51 PM »

i'll throw this out, then have all you call me a "realism nazi":

not 1 engagement scenario i have read in this thread is a realistic engagment.

so what plane XXX outperforms plane YYY fomr different theaters and countries.

do you really think the jap engineers planed on combating an La7 when designing the ki84? do you really think the americans planed on fighting an la7 when designing the f4u?

plane performance IMHO should be decided on reliably data, from actual engagments. 190A5-vs-La7 ki85-vs-F4u you get the idea.

karnak in his original post asked for help understanding the fight between an la7 and a ki84.

well there is no data in the world about that, so we here playing the game can base it only on gameplay. BUT using gameplay to accuratly judge the real life plane desings is so off i can't being to describe it.

just my thoughts.

humble · « **Reply #34 on:** November 08, 2004, 05:46:48 PM »

Karnak....

flew a hop when I got home and filmed this...it might give you an idea...or maybe not. Is me in my Ki-61 vs a spitty I'm shadowing...no real merge or anything just MA reality.

Couple things that might be relevant....

1st) I'm in lag except when I'm shooting....

2nd) I'm off gas alot even though I'm probably even or Neg E at times

3rd) I'm almost never "in plane" with the spit

4th) at end I use the vertical to convert lag to lead and let the spitty "pull into the shot"...basically this is the inside vs outside track I'm talking about...90% of the fight I'm hanging in his 6 letting him do the work, near the end I'm in lag but set up out of plane and go from nose high lag to nose low lead....he tightens his turn and pulls right into a guns solution...now he might be going .....how did that Ki turn with me....but truthfully I never turned with him once in the fight....i'm always out of plane with him.

http://www.azhacker.com/images/film30.ahf

I've got no clue if you've even bothered to look at any of these...let me know if i'm just wasting bandwidth....

humble · « **Reply #35 on:** November 08, 2004, 05:51:35 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by JB73
i'll throw this out, then have all you call me a "realism nazi":

not 1 engagement scenario i have read in this thread is a realistic engagment.

so what plane XXX outperforms plane YYY fomr different theaters and countries.

do you really think the jap engineers planed on combating an La7 when designing the ki84? do you really think the americans planed on fighting an la7 when designing the f4u?

plane performance IMHO should be decided on reliably data, from actual engagments. 190A5-vs-La7 ki85-vs-F4u you get the idea.

karnak in his original post asked for help understanding the fight between an la7 and a ki84.

well there is no data in the world about that, so we here playing the game can base it only on gameplay. BUT using gameplay to accuratly judge the real life plane desings is so off i can't being to describe it.

just my thoughts.

JB....

you couldnt be more wrong...ACM is ACM....the fight between a Ki-84 and an la-7 is functionaly the same as the fight between a Ki-84 and a -1 hog in many respects. In most instances the fighter pilot is the critical component in deciding victory in air combat. Karnak made a comment that he's being out turned by the lala....simply not a reality so something else is happening. He's losing the ACM battle by misapplying the aircraft.

Karnak · « **Reply #36 on:** November 08, 2004, 06:10:04 PM »

JB73,

I wasn't talking about reality. I was talking about how they match up in the game.

humble,

I'm at work right now and I highly doubt this computer would even run AH2, let alone how my employer would react.

I'll take a look at them when I get home.

Elfie · « **Reply #37 on:** November 08, 2004, 06:29:22 PM »

I just turned an La-7 with a Ki-84 at 180 knots in the MA, I was gaining until I ran out of fuel

Widewing · « **Reply #38 on:** November 08, 2004, 06:43:55 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
From what I've seen, the Ki-84 and La-7 are pretty close. The La-7 has a better top speed. The Ki-84 outclimbs it and out turns it. If the fight stays close and dirty the Ki-84 should win. Of course pilot skill comes into play. A good La-7 pilot is going to use his speed to extend far enough that he has time to get some alt before the Ki-84 can catch him in the climb. I had a fight the other night vs an La-7 that lasted almost 10 minutes. I closed to within 200 yds of his 6 several times, but always at just the wrong angle. Every time I'd get almost to a firing solution, he'd dive out (always made sure he had air under him to dive away before engaging) and I'd keep up for awhile at 400 out and then slowly lose him. I have my convergence set to 300 and he could get out to 400 before I could line up on him. I dont waste ammo if its 400 yds. or more unless I'm trying to force him to break. At about 2k out he'd climb and I'd gain on him again, then he'd rev. and we'd go round a few times. Then repeat. Finally a group dove in and a pony driver got him.

Let's review the two fighters side by side.

Max speed at 22k:
La-7 wins by more than 30 mph

Max speed on deck:
La-7 wins by about 40 mph

Sustained climb from sea level:
La-7 outclimbs the Ki-84 by about 800 fpm.

Sustained climb at 22k:
Close enough to call even.

Acceleration at sea level:
La-7 runs away with ease.

Acceleration at 22k:
La-7 still runs away, just not as quickly.

Turn rate at 300 mph:
La-7 wins because the Ki-84 has excessively heavy elevators (HTC needs a look at because this was not reported by Allied pilots who tested the aircraft).

Turn rate at 200 mph:
Just about equal, the Ki-84s elevators are still too ineffective.

Turn rate at 150 mph:
Ki-84 is superior, especially if fighting in the vertical.

Roll rate at 300 mph:
Heavy ailerons limit the Hayate. La-7 wins easy.

Roll rate at 200 mph:
Closer, but La-7 still prevails

Roll rate at 150:
About equal.

If and when HTC fixes the Ki-84 problems associated with speeds above 200 mph, the Hayate will become a far more dangerous adversary for the La-7. For now, it must drag the fight down to low speeds to win against a good stick. Moreover, a good stick will disengage before that happens. Fo rnow, you will have to depend on the williness of an La-7 fighter to mix it up.

My regards,

Widewing

AKFokerFoder+ · « **Reply #39 on:** November 08, 2004, 06:52:09 PM »

Quote

How do you deal with an aircraft that is faster, better climbing, tighter turning, faster accelerating and better rolling?

I fly the 190A8, and last month I was 15 and 1 against the LA7.

So how do you deal with a superior aircraft??? While, just about any plane is superior to the 190A8. So the solution is energy management, pure and simple. Below could be called Dicta FokerFoder, but I stole all the ideas reading Robert Shaw and Dicta Boelke:

1. Stay higher,

2. Stay faster,

3. Pick your fights,

4. Never turn with the LA7 (or any other plane if in a FW190)

5. If you don't make the kill withing 20 seconds of engaging, break off the engagement and egress while you still have a significant E advantage.

Simple as can be, the LA7 is flown by a lot of bunny pilots and can be a nice light snack. In the hands of a veteran the LA7 will hand you your butt. But... if you stick with 1,2,3,4 and 5 and even a verteran will have a hard time taking you out.

streetstang · « **Reply #40 on:** November 08, 2004, 06:57:23 PM »

pffft, 190s can't turn fight. Any noob knows that!

Karnak · « **Reply #41 on:** November 08, 2004, 06:59:25 PM »

AKFokerFodder,

That's great for the Fw190, and I have had good success against the La-7 in the Fw190A-5, but I can tell you right now that staying fast against the La-7 in the Ki-84 is a really, really bad idea.

humble · « **Reply #42 on:** November 08, 2004, 07:08:21 PM »

I've learned to never argue with widewing on AC data but I'd give the edge to the Ki well thru 200 in a "flat turn" obviously I might be wrong. I just grabbed a lala and went Ki hunting (didnt find one)...but wow what a power band. Simply gives the plane amazing versatility....easy for a lala driver to play games with you. Was an interesting clip so I posted it in training forum but cant see it applies here....will play with lala a bit more though. From what I saw it excels at getting slower tha n con and gaining angular advantage then powering up for shot...kind of oppisite of the norm.

humble · « **Reply #43 on:** November 08, 2004, 07:14:57 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
AKFokerFodder,

That's great for the Fw190, and I have had good success against the La-7 in the Fw190A-5, but I can tell you right now that staying fast against the La-7 in the Ki-84 is a really, really bad idea.

Karnak...

You seem to always talk in absolutes, there is no such thing in ACM. You are either angles/energy/boom&zoom or some combo of the above as dictated by circumstance. If you bounce me in a spit 9 in a lala I'm gonna angles fight you...and yes I'll out turn you...now as e state equalizes you'll have a window I need to manage...then i'll convert to E fighting....once I have an edge I can either E fight B&Z or seek to convert back to angles....

XrightyX · « **Reply #44 on:** November 08, 2004, 07:20:29 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
I fly the 190A8, and last month I was 15 and 1 against the LA7.

So how do you deal with a superior aircraft??? While, just about any plane is superior to the 190A8. So the solution is energy management, pure and simple. Below could be called Dicta FokerFoder, but I stole all the ideas reading Robert Shaw and Dicta Boelke:

1. Stay higher,

2. Stay faster,

3. Pick your fights,

4. Never turn with the LA7 (or any other plane if in a FW190)

5. If you don't make the kill withing 20 seconds of engaging, break off the engagement and egress while you still have a significant E advantage.

Simple as can be, the LA7 is flown by a lot of bunny pilots and can be a nice light snack. In the hands of a veteran the LA7 will hand you your butt. But... if you stick with 1,2,3,4 and 5 and even a verteran will have a hard time taking you out.

I'm completely with ya' on this doctrine, even if I forget to practice it all the time. However, it seems that this is exactly a list of things that would make you a "limp-wristed wussy" in some very vocal (err, multi-thousand posts) people's lists. See some other recent posts for exact identities. Stay higher = alt monkey, stay faster = running wuss, pick your fights = limp wristed, 20 second engagement rule = running wuss also. But hey, sounds to me like you're pretty darn successful. Wish I had the discipline to employ these 5 things ALL the time. BTW, nice k/d ratio.

Edit: Oh, yeah, didn't want to hijack a post. I've never really had that much of a problem with La7s. I take the time to fly every plane a few times. Learn it's strengths and weaknesses. La7 makes you over confident. La7 is not a wonder plane. La7 is always vulnerable to someone coming into a fight from above.