Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design

[Crumpp]

You can quote or copy the 109 stuff.  My book is not about the 109.  You have the green light!

Crumpp

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Angus
Takes a ton of work if you don't have the numbers handy.
Cristopher Shore's "Aces High" will give you most of the data about which and when so aircraft were taken into Squadron service by squadron size I mean.
It is however a lot of a job to break it up.
But, reading through it quickly, it seems that the Spit IX was quite well in service late 1942, and almost dominant in 1943

 

Keep in mind the Spit VI, VII, VIII and XII were also involved at some point in 43.  The XII for example, while in small numbers was active from roughly April 43 and produced the highest scoring Spit Squadron in the Fall of 43.

Certainly Spit Vs were still operating.  Escorting the mediums to LW airfields and targets in France usually involved all types of Spits.  Spit Vs would be close escort.  VIIs or IXs would be high cover with the XIIs involved at medium alts along with LFIXs

Dan/Slack

[Angus]

Nice input Guppy.

Spit XII= basically a XIV with some quirks?

BTW, what squadron? And Aces there off????

[Crumpp]

Certainly Spit Vs were still operating. Escorting the mediums to LW airfields and targets in France usually involved all types of Spits. Spit Vs would be close escort. VIIs or IXs would be high cover with the XIIs involved at medium alts along with LFIXs

Interesting.  According to the Luftwaffe units stationed in the MTO in 1943 they report Spit V's as their major Spitfire opponent.  I am sure the majority of Luftwaffe pilots would not know a Spit V from a XII looking out of the cockpit but the Luftwaffe intelligence reports the DAF fighters as Spit V's.

If all these other Spitfire varients were present, they certainly did not make a huge specific impact on the Luftwaffe pilots.

Crumpp

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Angus
Nice input Guppy.

Spit XII= basically a XIV with some quirks?

BTW, what squadron? And Aces there off????

XII, single stage Griffon III or IV.  Built on either a Spit V airframe (those with fixed tail wheels in the EN serial range) or Spit VIII airframe (MB serials with retracting undercarriage)

First time the RAF Spit drivers had encountered the opposite rotation of the Griffon.  Some crazy take offs for those who still trimmed it for the Merlin.

91 Squadron was high scoring Spit Squadron in September 43.  Ray Harries was the WingCo of the Tangmere Wing comprised of the two Spit XII squadrons, 41 and 91.  He'd been CO of 91.  Norman Kynaston was CO at the time and also an Ace.  Others included Grey Stenborg a New Zealander who was KIA in the Fall of 43, Chris Doll, Jaques Andreieux and Jean Maridor, both Free French pilots.

The XII would be great in the MA since the airwar is in the alt ranges that the XII excelled in.  Wishful thinking of course  Clipped wing, broad chord rudder and that Griffon out front.  But I'll settle for an LFIX

Dan/Slack

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Interesting.  According to the Luftwaffe units stationed in the MTO in 1943 they report Spit V's as their major Spitfire opponent.  I am sure the majority of Luftwaffe pilots would not know a Spit V from a XII looking out of the cockpit but the Luftwaffe intelligence reports the DAF fighters as Spit V's.

If all these other Spitfire varients were present, they certainly did not make a huge specific impact on the Luftwaffe pilots.

Crumpp

But you are referring to the MTO where the IX and VIII arrived in smaller numbers later then they did out of England.  XII never made it to the MTO.  

RAF Squadrons often operated a mix of Vs and IXs together.  92 for example had both flying at the same time.  IXs would fly high cover for the Vs.

If there was an impact on the LW it was in that every Spit became potentially a more potent version.  If nothing else it provided some comfort to the Spit V pilots

Dan/Slack

[Crumpp]

Thanks Guppy for clarifying that.

If nothing else it provided some comfort to the Spit V pilots

I definately agree that Spits became more potent.  So didn't the Luftwaffe fighters.

Based off of Fabers FW-190A3 performance trials and crossed referenced with the tactical trials I think the Spit IX did provide more comfort to the RAF pilots.  It's appearence is not even noticed in the Jagdwaffe FW 190 units on the Channel.

To the Luftwaffe the Spitfire started out a fighter to be respected and remained so throughout the war.  
Pretty sure the reverse is the same for the 109 and 190.

Crumpp

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Thanks Guppy for clarifying that.

 

I definately agree that Spits became more potent.  So didn't the Luftwaffe fighters.

Based off of Fabers FW-190A3 performance trials and crossed referenced with the tactical trials I think the Spit IX did provide more comfort to the RAF pilots.  It's appearence is not even noticed in the Jagdwaffe FW 190 units on the Channel.

To the Luftwaffe the Spitfire started out a fighter to be respected and remained so throughout the war.  
Pretty sure the reverse is the same for the 109 and 190.

Crumpp

There definately was a time where the Spit pilots felt overmatched when the 190 appeared.

And the confidence came back with the advent of the Spit IX.  Regardless of how the performance numbers played out, the pilots believed they could take on the 190s and 109s with confidence.

The Spit XII drivers I got to know, definately felt like the XII outperformed the 109s and 190s when they went into combat.

Again, not neccesarily based on actual aircraft performance numbers, but the confidence was there, which made a huge difference.

Dan/Slack

[Angus]

Hey, don't make this into a 190 thread, 190 dweeb

Anyway, do you have the performance of the XII at hand?

I remember a tale of Harris. He had 190's jump his squad on purpose, countering with a high break. The 190's could not outzoom that one and had to run, but he could catch them.
Basically, after losing the initiative, the 190's couldn't do anything the XII couldn't.

But in 1941/42, 190 vs normal Spit V's, and perhaps even some Mk II's, now that was the reverse story.
Supermarine was still hairing out the roll rate quirks, and there enters the 190, fast, heavily armed, uber-rolling, and AGGRESSIVE! So, the 190 was the devil in the sky, for a good while.

Oh, speaking of MTO recognition of the Spitfire, there are some things to bear in mind.
1. The IX and V look almost identical, - in the air the difference cannot be seen.
2. The VIII adds a bit to the confusion.
3. There were many mods around. V's with modded exhaust stumps, clipped, chopped, chopped, etc.

So a Spit was not just a Spit if you see what I mean.
But the bulk of the early desert war was the Mk V with the Vokes filter which really created a lot of parasite drag. At times, those got outrun by Ju88's, and they were outperformed by both the 109F and the 190.
A tactical move by one of the RAF commanders was to "stack" his squadron rather than staying at a certain altitude. The top guys provided cover for the others, and it worked quite well.

Anyway, gotta rush. Will bring some stuff into here later on.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Angus
Hey, don't make this into a 190 thread, 190 dweeb

Anyway, do you have the performance of the XII at hand?

I remember a tale of Harris. He had 190's jump his squad on purpose, countering with a high break. The 190's could not outzoom that one and had to run, but he could catch them.
Basically, after losing the initiative, the 190's couldn't do anything the XII couldn't.

 

Check here for DP845 performance as the prototype Spit XII.  Numbers are similar for the production birds.

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/dp845.html

The best day of the Tangmere Spit XII Wing was the October 20, 1943 mission where they were bounced and did as you describe, breaking into the 109s and 190s, claiming 9 for no loss.

The key was to get the LW fighters to come down, which they didn't always do

Image taken shortly after the big 10/20/43 flight showing both 41 and 91 Squadrons in front of a Spit XII at Tangmere.  Ray Harries is the little guy in the center.  41 pilots to the left of the photo and 91 to the right, except fof 91 Free French pilot "Jacko" Andrieux 2nd from left who is with the 41 pilots.

Just to give an indication of the multinational feel of the RAF squadrons at the time, the first 5 guys from the left are a South African, Frenchman, Yank in the RAF, Englishman and a Canadian.  And also in there are a Pole, Dutchman, New Zealanders and Aussies

Dan/Slack

[Angus]

Gonna try an image insert.

[Angus]

Yeehahh, worked.
Well, Izzy posted this above somewhere.
Just wondering if there is a graph like this for newermodels?
Anyone??

[Crumpp]

I remember a tale of Harris. He had 190's jump his squad on purpose, countering with a high break. The 190's could not outzoom that one and had to run, but he could catch them.

Looking at the performance graphs for sea level performance, it looks like the FW-190A8 with the thin metal prop and 14 bladed Lufterrad is a little faster on the deck and climbs just as good.

With the wood wide chord prop, I think the FW-190A8 will be equal in speed and easily outclimb the Spit XII.

Crumpp

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Looking at the performance graphs for sea level performance, it looks like the FW-190A8 with the thin metal prop and 14 bladed Lufterrad is a little faster on the deck and climbs just as good.

With the wood wide chord prop, I think the FW-190A8 will be equal in speed and easily outclimb the Spit XII.

Crumpp

Yet I've got combat reports where two Spit XII pilots got jumped by a pair of 190s while on a low level recce to France.  In the confusion both Spit XII pilots failed to drop their 30 gallon drop tanks yet they were able to outrun the 190s that had the drop on them.

And I have combat reports where Spit XIIs intercepted the 190s hitting the south coast of England and despite the 190s having a head start on the deck, the Spits were able to catch the 190s.

At the same time you have to take into account individual aircraft as the performance of the 190 and Spit XII were comparable.  One Spit XII pilot is gaining on a 190 while another is barely staying at the same distance.

So who had the better maintained aircraft, the sweeter engine, better pilot, able to take the plane to the limits of it's performance, etc won the day.

It's where the 'walking up the steps' in aircraft performace on both sides comes into play.  It would rise then plateau for a bit where the fight was equal, rise again, plateau and so on.

Looking at the war years you can somewhat see it.

1939  LW on top, RAF catching up
1940-Even
1941-190 shows up LW on top
1942 Spit IX levels the playing field along with the Tiffie
1943-Allies starting to get the edge with the Griffon Spits, Merlin Mustang, Better Merlin Spits, Tiffie, but still things are fairly level in terms of performance.
1944-Back and forth-Mustangs and Jugs improving, Spit XIV, Tempest, 38L etc move the Allies forward.  LW counters with 190D9 late in the year and the Jets which swings the performance ballance to the LW although the numbers of Allied aircraft makes a huge difference.
1945 the same trend continues but Allied Jets are in production and starting to head to Europe but the war ends.

I suppose what it says in terms of AH, is that if you wanted to make the most even MA type arena, you'd fill it with the planes of 1943 and let em duke it
out

P38G/Hs, Late model P40s, Early model P47s and P51Bs in small numbers, Spitfire Vs, IXs, and Tiffies vs 109Gs and 190A variants and the Italian 202s and 205s.

Might be a heckuva fight

Dan/Slack

[Angus]

With the CT being almost dead,this is an idea on it's own.
A map, and all planes made in a whole year or so.

Anyway, Guppy, you're so right there with differing  performance between individual aircraft even of the same type.
That's just how it was.
Engine status, trimming, pilot training, fuel quality, subvariant issues, etc etc.
For all it's worth, Harris could have been jumped by derated 190's, he'd never know, and from their cockpit he was perhaps a Mk V?!?!?!?!
(Well, If I belive Izzy, MkV's were still dominant in 1944, but alas, I don't belive Izzy)

See also this here, from another thread:

"I lead the squadron behind the Messerchmitts and blew up their leader with my first burst, before attaching myself to his wingman who must have been a novice as he took little evasive action, and notwithstanding my cannons jamming, I peppered him with my two machine guns from minimal range until my DeWilde set him on fire.
He struggeled into cloud cover where I lost him, and maybe he eventually got home, but I thought more likely, as the boys did, that he joined his leader in the mountains below."
Anthoney Bartley, 29 dec 1942, 111 sqn leader.
One victim is confirmed, Gunther Eggebrecht II Jg51, shot down and wounded.

Makes you wonder. The 109 was at least a 109F while the Spitfire was a Mk V trop, the slowest, possibly slower than the Mk I!!!! The armament was only 2x303's. The German should have been more than a complete novice as well.
Any idea?