P38 a super plane?

[Crumpp]

So, are you stating that all of the data on this document is accurate? Please, please make my day, say yes.

Sure lets here how the Navy was wrong.  I sure they have very little experience with airplanes.  The document is a flight test and leads me to wonder that if  in practical reality the ranges were not much closer than what we see on these charts.

I would like you to show evidence that the P38 squadrons flew on alone with the bombers to target.  I can't find a single account of this but I do have several missions with a mixed USAAF escort.  Everybody leaves when the P47's have to go.  The bombers continue to target "unescorted" as the missions where named.

This of course refers to Operation Argument Missions.

P-38J
2260 miles at 186 mph at 10,000 feet with two 250 Imp gall drop tanks.
 

Thought we were using the 108 Imp gallon tanks earlier.  The P47D is a P47D-11 according to F4UDOA.

Crumpp

[Wotan]

Oh yeah, on October 8, 1943 Johnson came to the aid of another P-47 engaged with a pair of Fw 190s. Johnson engaged and shot down one of them. Its pilot was Hans Phillip, one of the leading "Experten" with 207 kills. That other 190 was splashed by the other P-47. Phillip was Johnson's 3rd kill.

Where ever you got your 'story' it's just incorrect.

German sources claim Philipp's FW 190 was struck and 'damaged' by the defensive guns of the bombers he was engaging.

Several years ago someone tried to establish that Hans Philipp had been shot down by P-47 ace Robert Johnson. I ran this by several Luftwaffe historians. They discount it as their info, apparently Luftwaffe loss records, indicate that Herr Philipp was shot up quite heavily by the American bombers he was attacking.

Even the version where Johnson 'gets the kill'on Philipp is post war speculation 50 years after the fact.

"Re-knowned P-47 ace Robert S. Johnson followed four Focke-Wulf Fw-190's into a bomber formation and fired on the lead plane. Several hits were scored and plane started going down. Johnson was then attacked by two of the other Focke-Wulf's, and was shot up bad himself. Johnson then dove away from the enemy fighters and ran for home. "  

As I pointed out to you before the LW were tasked with destroying bombers, Hans Philipp was attacking 'bombers' not other p47s when he was hit. In fact Johson's claims he was alone with his wingman  looking for friendlies after shooting down a 110 and being separated from his flight

In Johson's own words:

Johnson: That was on October 8, 1943. My wingman and I had become separated, as sometimes happens in combat. We were trying to find some friendly airplanes to fly home with. I had just shot down a Messerschmitt Bf-110, which was my fourth kill. As I pulled up from that dive I saw four FW-190s attacking the bombers. I rolled over until I was upside down so I could watch them, as they were some 5,000 feet below me. I was inverted and continued my dive, shooting while pushing the nose forward to give the necessary lead for my bullets to intercept one of the planes. I was shooting at the leader, and his number three or four man pulled his nose up, shooting at me as I was coming down. I continued the attack, and just as I hit the leader, knocking him down, I felt a thump in my airplane. How badly I was hit I didn't know, as I was very busy. I leveled out after that, and I found out 50 years later that my fifth victory was Hans Philipp, a 206-victory ace from the Russian Front. I pulled up right in the path of a group of Bf-110s and FW-190s coming in behind the four I had engaged. I immediately threw the stick left and dropped the nose. Nothing happened when I hit left rudder, and then I knew that my rudder cable was shot away. I had no rudder control at all, only trim tabs.

Whether you chose to believe Johnson shot down Philipp or not (and there is considerable doubt that he did) even Johnson's version of the 190 he claimed to have shot down that day was engaging bombers.

50 years after the fact some one goes to Johnson and tells him he may of shot down Philipp. This is hardly a fact set in stone.

This type BS is the same type of garbage as your 'just 60 p38s took on 200 LW experten'...

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Sure lets here how the Navy was wrong.  I sure they have very little experience with airplanes.  The document is a flight test and leads me to wonder that if  in practical reality the ranges were not much closer than what we see on these charts.I

On pg 48 of the link you liked to quote from earlier http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/III/AAF-III-2.html

Since January, the range of the P-51 had been extended. Without external tanks that aircraft could escort to a point approximately 475 miles from base, a distance roughly equal to the maximum escort range of the P-47 equipped with two 108-gallon auxiliary wing tanks.


The carrying of 2 dts did not start until May '44. The 150gal belly tank came into use mid Jan '44. This tank allowed the P-47s to reach the Dummer Lake area.

The USN screwed up the chart for the P-47s combat range.

[Angus]

Of the documents:
WOW!. Do you have page 218 as well??????????????????

Of the 109 flaps:
Seems like they were too slow for practical use in a dogfight. Deploying with hand like this in a high speed heavy turn, how long????

Of the 190 flaps:
I always thought they were two-stage and were mechanically deployed, and deployable at rather high speed. Am I right here?

[Crumpp]

Of the 109 flaps:

One of the "109" experts could probably answer for sure but IIRC it only took 4 turns to completely raise or lower the flaps.

Of the 190 flaps:

Yes.  According to the Flugzueg-Handbuch they could be deployed at 500 kph and below.

Crumpp

[Schutt]

I can hardly read the range comparison, from when is it? Any way you can put up a better copy of it?

[rshubert]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
To bad it does not correspond with the charts post previously. So, would say there is one of your 'military errors' you yapped about on that chart, using range instead of radius for the P-47.

But when you wear horse blinders, like you do Crumpp, that is what is expected.

Also notice the P-47 has more range than the P-51.

Using that chart it should have been the P-47s that went to Berlin instead of the P-51s and P-38s. (listed is internal fuel load) And, you called me dense!

Actually, if you read note 5, it says auxiliary tanks are used.  That could mean drop tanks.  It specifically says the aux tanks are used all the way to the target, then dropped.

[Angus]

From Crumpp:
"One of the "109" experts could probably answer for sure but IIRC it only took 4 turns to completely raise or lower the flaps. "

4 Turns. Wouldn't wanna do that in a fight. How was the system on the Mustang for instance? A sort of a switch with many steps?
Well, at least it got used quite a bit.
The 190 I presume had it also in a switch?
(Heck, should have a picture of it somewhere on my swolled HD)

[niklas]

More than 20-30° of flaps wasn´t useful anyway, it´s not good that in AH people can use full flap in a better way than 1-2notches for manoevering. The drag penalty was too high with flaps fully deployed.

The advantage of the 109 wheel system was that you could trim the elevator up  AND lower flaps simultanously. Trimming was required by all pilots when they started manoevering, so this system safed actually time for the pilot .

And it was lighter than a hydraulic or electric driven system of course

niklas

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by rshubert
Actually, if you read note 5, it says auxiliary tanks are used.  That could mean drop tanks.  It specifically says the aux tanks are used all the way to the target, then dropped.

Yet if you look at the fuel load(2cd line) it seems (fuzzy scan) to be less than the 410gal the P-38J carried internally. If aux/dts were carried then the fuel load would be MUCH greater, so should at least be 150 gal more at the minimum for the P-38. Same goes for the P-47 which carried 310 gal, as stated, internally. No where, that I can see, does it state the external fuel load.

If the P-47 had such great range compared to the P-38 and P-51, then why was not the P-47 used to escort the bomber to Poltava on the Shuttle mission instead of the P-38 and P-51?



Angus, the Fw had a push button swicth for its 3 positions.

[Crumpp]

More than 20-30° of flaps wasn´t useful anyway, it´s not good that in AH people can use full flap in a better way than 1-2notches for manoevering. The drag penalty was too high with flaps fully deployed.

Exactly.  The flap design of the 109 helped increase the turn for sustained periods of time.  Airflow over the top of the wing would flow down helping to increase the rate of turn.  It did not take a large amount of flaps to get benefits in the turn.  Oscar very much preferred the 109's flaps for dogfighting over the FW-190's.  They gave the pilot lots of control and were very precise.

The FW-190's flaps design airflow over the top of the wing would not help increase the turn rate as dramatically.  Instead the flap itself would be using the flow under the wing and drag of the flap to increase turn. To sustain it the raw power of the engine was used to overcome the drag and keep the plane from stalling.  It would hang on the prop around the circle.

At least according to Oscar who flew a Bf-109 from the day the war started until mid-1943.  He flew an FW-190 for the remainder of the war.  As he explained it you popped flaps for short periods of time to gain lead for the shot in the FW-190 or stall turn hanging on the prop.  Of course he also says the FW-190 would turn well if the pilot had the experience to handle it.  He greatly preferred the FW-190 to the 109 for dogfighting overall.  

Crumpp

[Crumpp]

Actually, if you read note 5, it says auxiliary tanks are used. That could mean drop tanks. It specifically says the aux tanks are used all the way to the target, then dropped.

Exactly.  Note 5 says:

Radius includes -

1.  20 minutes to Warm up and Taxi.
2.  1 minute to Take off
3.  10 minutes to Rendevous @ 60 % power at Sea Level.
4.  Climb out @ 60% power to 15,000 feet ASL
5.  Cruise to Objective @ Optimum Cruise settings
6.  20 minutes of Combat @ Full Military Power at 15,000 feet (My guess is TWO engines really eat up the gas at this point)

7.  Return to Base @ Optimum cruise settings at 1500 feet ASL
8.  Land with Reserve of 40 minutes time @ Optimum cruise settings.

Auxillery tank is used for:

Rendevous
Climb
Cruise to Objective
At the Objective the Drop tank is released.  After that all fuel comes from the main protected fuel tank.

Radius includes distance covered in climb and not descent.

Looks like it test's actual practical combat radius and not just maximum endurance for the sake of distance.  

Crumpp

[MiloMorai]

Now you can do your own math Crumpp but this is what I calculated.

Excluding #3 and #4 (what is the rpm at 60%), the P-47 burns 206.2 gal which leaves 103.8 gal in the 305 gal internal tank. The P-38 burns 246.6 gal which leaves 163.4 gal in the 410 gal internal tank.

If setting IV in the FOIC is used for #3 and #4, for the P-47 at 63 gal (reserve deducted) gives a range of 210 mi and the P-38 at 120 gal (reserve deducted) gives a range of 336 mi., clean condition. That gives the P-38 a range increase of 126 mi. over the P-47

There is no capacity mentioned on the chart for the drop tank(s) but the fuel cap. listed is for internal fuel only. The P-47 could carry a 150 gal tank while the P-38 could carry 2 300 gal tanks.

#1 used Min Specific Consumption, best > P-47/P-38 - 20/22 gal
#2 used take off > P-47/P-38 - 4.5/5.6 gal
#5 used MSC, best > P-47/P-38 - 45/49.5 gal for 45 min.
#6 used emergency > P-47/P-38 - 91.7/120 gal
#7 used MSC, best > P-47/P-38 - 45/49.5 gal for 45 min.
#8 used MSC, best > P-47/P-38 - 40/44 gal

a couple of more charts to help you with a more detailed calculation.

[Angus]

And for the lazy one like myself, the overall assumption?

[Crumpp]

Now you can do your own math Crumpp but this is what I calculated.

I'll sit down and figure it out.  Looking at it though I think the 20 minutes at WEP is a killer for the P38.  It could fly farther but when put to a practical mission it's range was not that much greater.  

Crumpp