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Author Topic: P38 a super plane?  (Read 16722 times)

Offline MiloMorai

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #75 on: November 29, 2004, 04:00:54 PM »
here is a chart for the P-38, via Zeno's



As can be seen, setting V gave a range of 330 mi more than the P-47.
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Offline Delirium

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #76 on: November 29, 2004, 04:35:26 PM »
And for my NEXT trick, I shall procure a rare and non-biased graph to back up everyone's arguments both those for and against the P38 in combat.

Gents, seriously, there is no need to get your panties in a bunch over this discussion. Keep it civil and we can all enjoy it...
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Delirium
80th "Headhunters"
Retired AH Trainer (but still teach the P38 selectively)

I found an air leak in my inflatable sheep and plugged the hole! Honest!

Offline Angus

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #77 on: November 29, 2004, 04:38:40 PM »
Always read that a tanked up P38 had more range than the P47's at the same time.
That's why they were there so "deep" before the P51's came around.
Note, they could fly on one engine! Not  that all twins can!
The 109 did not really have maneuvering flaps, but they surely had multy-deployment. I somehow remember that the deployment was slow/manual. Anyone?
However they would work well with the slats.
And, the P38 escorts on deep raids were really not that many, as far as I've read.
P47's were suspected by the LW to have shorter range. They sometimes got jumped near the dutch coast to force them to drop their tanks. Why?
And at last, was the LW strength less in 1943 than at the same time in 1944?
I at least (call me silly) can quite well see a circus of 200 black crosses on a good day.......
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline niklas

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #78 on: November 29, 2004, 05:03:55 PM »
The usage of combat flaps, in the sense to tighting turning, was probably  proposed for the 109 earlier then for any other ww2 fighter aircraft - and probably realized too.

niklas
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Offline Angus

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #79 on: November 29, 2004, 05:11:59 PM »
How did they deploy?
Compressed air, hydraulics, or jacked?
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #80 on: November 29, 2004, 05:19:03 PM »
Quote
Actually the 109 did have manuevering flaps, at least by your definition for the 190.


It's not definition, It's the USAAF's remember?  You need to see it again?  :rofl

Crumpp
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Offline humble

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #81 on: November 29, 2004, 05:29:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Meyer
Maybe you should come back when you  understand what is being discussed :p

Hartmann didn't have one of the best kills/sortie records, you should know that.


@Widewing: just a few examples:

Günther Scheel 71/70

Günther Rall: 275/621

Emil Lang: 173/403

Otto Kittel: 267/583

Marseille: 158/382


And when I name the He100 I was talking about the D-1 version, who AFAIK did 670km/h.

What was the speed of the P-38 prototype?



I'm always amazed by this type of pure garbage...your basically comparing apples and oranges:)..

Now, for the record Gunther Scheel is easily the #1 ace from any nation on any front. The logic is simple, he's a "late war" pilot who got very little training and was thrown into the worst part of the meat grinder. A simply amazing score given his specific circumstances.

However, to compare Johnson (since thats were this started) infavorably to any of the above is pure BS. He flew in mid 43-44, a time when the luftwaffe was at its strongest and allied planes were severely hampered by doctrine and plane capabilities. He only flew 91 total sorties, all against superb opposition...unlike many german aces who often fought against inferior opposition (both plane & pilot). Had he flown a second tour...especially in the "meat grinder" phase of the airwar he'd of probably gotten another 30+ kills...
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"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline MiloMorai

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #82 on: November 29, 2004, 06:04:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
It's not definition, It's the USAAF's remember?  You need to see it again?  :rofl

Crumpp


You produced the document. Ergo, it is your definition.:)

Fw described the position as 'landing' not manuevering.:)


Angus, a wheel on the left side of the cockpit. Iirc it took 20-30 secs from full up to full down.
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Offline Wotan

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #83 on: November 29, 2004, 06:06:44 PM »
Quote
Now, for the record Gunther Scheel is easily the #1 ace from any nation on any front. The logic is simple, he's a "late war" pilot who got very little training and was thrown into the worst part of the meat grinder. A simply amazing score given his specific circumstances.


Sounds like some one needs to do a goggle search..

Scheel went MIA in 16/07/43...

He bailed out of his A-5 after engaging with a Soviet Spit and Yak 9. His parachute opened but he was never seen again...

He served on the eastern front during that time where I am sure you would say he was fighting:

Quote
against inferior opposition (both plane & pilot).


Gunther Scheel's claim to fame was his 71/70 but htat can be attriibuted to 'luck' just as much as skill. Most likely a little of both...

Anyway,

Addi Glunz flew through some of the worst over the western front and was never shot down. He shot down 19 4 engined bombers, a crapload of spitfires, 6 or 7 p47s, a few p38s etc...

71 victories and another 10-15 that were claimed but unconfirmed.

While his kill per sortie was nothing remarkable his ability to stay alive and be successfull puts here up there with the best.

Be late war east front was no joke either. Do some search on JG54 in Kurland...

It would make flying jugs in west in mid '43 look like a cake walk...
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Offline MiloMorai

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #84 on: November 29, 2004, 06:46:27 PM »
dream world vs reality

"The climb to 30,000ft and the necessity for high speed in hostile territory, saw the P-47s 305 gal fuel load consummed at a a rate averging 200 gal/hr"

on ferry tanks used July '43

"Unfortunately they were only suitable for low and medium altitudes, for the lack of pressurisation. Fuel could not be drawn over 20,000ft, which meant the tanks had to be released before reaching the P-47's operational altitude. More over, the tanks were difficult to install, tended to leak, affected the CG of the a/c and sometimes failed to release."

Roger Freeman, a noted and respected aviatian expert and published author.
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Offline Widewing

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #85 on: November 29, 2004, 06:48:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bunch
Widewing, were you flying the B-17 i saw near the Statue of Liberty Sept. 25?


No, I only wish!

I logged time in or was qualified in the T-28, S-2F, US-2B, C-1A and HU-16 (all R-1820 powered).

I also qualified in the C-118 and C-131 (both powered by the R-2800).

All courtesy of the U.S. Navy.

Managed a total of 332 traps as well.

All of this occurred before most of the people who play Aces High were born... Geez, I'm getting to be an old fart.......

My regards,

Widewing
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My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Crumpp

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #86 on: November 29, 2004, 07:55:00 PM »
Quote
"The climb to 30,000ft and the necessity for high speed in hostile territory, saw the P-47s 305 gal fuel load consummed at a a rate averging 200 gal/hr"


Just think about that for a moment.  That's about 45 min out and 45 min back.  A shorter mission than most of the Luftwaffe pilots.  

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on ferry tanks used July '43


The time period of the conversation is Feb '44.  Could the Allies fix a leaky tank in 8 months?  Of course...

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You produced the document. Ergo, it is your definition


No Milo.  The Allies produced the document.  I just found it in Wright Patterson's archives.



As for the P38 / P47.  I will believe a flight data over the POH any day.  Got plenty of examples of how the manual is wrong at work.  Takes the Military forever to get a supplement out and they love to combine things that are different into one book.

Either way data is out there to support both arguments and the facts are the P47 reached about were the "E" is in GERMANY on this map.  I don't think the P38 went much farther.  50 P38's facing two hundred Luftwaffe fighters is pure exaggeration in Feb '44.  One year earlier and it would be believable.  




So back to the P 38 and its performance.
Anybody care to see the complete report on the P38 vs. FW-190 from the RAE trials?  Yeah I know it's a P38F.  It's also a "de-rated" 801D2 that only reaches 375mph top speed.  Or the Official Luftwaffe assessment of the P38 perhaps?

Crumpp
« Last Edit: November 29, 2004, 08:07:31 PM by Crumpp »
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Offline Scherf

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Doccos
« Reply #87 on: November 29, 2004, 08:07:03 PM »
Personally,

Yes, I'd love to see both of the documents you mention.

Cheers,

mhuxta
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... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Oldman731

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #88 on: November 29, 2004, 08:23:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
However, to compare Johnson (since thats were this started) infavorably to any of the above is pure BS. He flew in mid 43-44, a time when the luftwaffe was at its strongest and allied planes were severely hampered by doctrine and plane capabilities. He only flew 91 total sorties, all against superb opposition...unlike many german aces who often fought against inferior opposition (both plane & pilot). Had he flown a second tour...especially in the "meat grinder" phase of the airwar he'd of probably gotten another 30+ kills...

Agreed.

- oldman
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Offline Meyer

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #89 on: November 29, 2004, 08:26:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
I'm always amazed by this type of pure garbage...your basically comparing apples and oranges:)..

Now, for the record Gunther Scheel is easily the #1 ace from any nation on any front. The logic is simple, he's a "late war" pilot who got very little training and was thrown into the worst part of the meat grinder. A simply amazing score given his specific circumstances.

However, to compare Johnson (since thats were this started) infavorably to any of the above is pure BS. He flew in mid 43-44, a time when the luftwaffe was at its strongest and allied planes were severely hampered by doctrine and plane capabilities. He only flew 91 total sorties, all against superb opposition...unlike many german aces who often fought against inferior opposition (both plane & pilot). Had he flown a second tour...especially in the "meat grinder" phase of the airwar he'd of probably gotten another 30+ kills...



Thanks for your educate response... but I think you need to improve your reading skills.
 
I'm not comparing 'anything', I'm just saying that Robert Johnson didn't have a similar record of claims/missions that the betters Lw pilots in that category (as Widewing did suggest)
 
 If you 'can't handle the truth' it's not my problem.

 ~S~
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