Author Topic: P38 a super plane?  (Read 18468 times)

Offline Widewing

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #330 on: December 11, 2004, 01:29:29 PM »
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Most test pilots ARE former combat pilots.  How did Richard Bong get killed?

While the "limits" a combat pilot pushed his aircraft too are debatable one thing is a fact in this thread:

Widewing your arguments are hardly quantifiable in terms of AH.

It seems to be:

All Flight Tested documentation that does not show the results we want is null and void because of testimony you have simply typed on the BBS.

Imagine the shoe on the other foot and this was someone making the same arguments for the 109's performance?  Would you let this standard fly??

Crumpp


Crumpp, perhaps you missed JG14's point. He stated: "The object of the straw man argument is to pick something out of the undesirable information from the victim and make something up about it (change the words around) so as to appear as if the poster says something obviously wrong and then attack this imagined message."

Bong wasn't at the JFC and during the time period in question, most test pilots were not combat veterans.....

As usual, you are attributing statements or conclusions to me that YOU created out of thin air. But, thanks for playing anyway.

Other business: That last document you posted is, unfortunately, 90% unreadable. It does show that the power settings used for the P-38 climb test was at just the "normal power" rating. 37.8 in/hg and 2600 rpm. I assume that military power at 47.0 in/hg @ 3,000 rpm wasn't used. Of course, if it were the P-38 would have climbed a great deal faster. Since I can't read most of the document, can you tell me if the Spitfire and Fw 190 also used power settings well below their Military rating? And if they didn't, do you know why the test unit elected not to use the full Military rating of the P-38F?

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Crumpp

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #331 on: December 11, 2004, 01:51:08 PM »
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Crumpp, perhaps you missed JG14's point. He stated: "The object of the straw man argument is to pick something out of the undesirable information from the victim and make something up about it (change the words around) so as to appear as if the poster says something obviously wrong and then attack this imagined message."


OMG!  And here we see a GREAT demonstration of this argument technique!

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Bong wasn't at the JFC and during the time period in question, most test pilots were not combat veterans.....


Please point out where I say Bong was at the JFC??

Bong was a COMBAT pilot that became a TEST pilot.  Most TEST Pilots ARE former COMBAT pilots!!

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I assume that military power at 47.0 in/hg @ 3,000 rpm wasn't used. Of course, if it were the P-38 would have climbed a great deal faster


Except that is not the climb and combat rating of the P38F.  If the FW-190 had used 1.42ata @ 2700U/min it would have climbed better as well.  

In fact it would have climbed significantly better with the cooling gills closed but that is not point.   Just check out the Spitfire site and see how cooling gills effect it!  Blew my socks off to come across FW-190 climb graphs with cooling gills closed.  Should that be the climb rate? NO.  Not unless we get the option to manipulate the gills and the consequence of blowing an engine from overheating. Of course I do have graphs of the tempature rise for HTC should they ever decide to model them.


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Since I can't read most of the document, can you tell me if the Spitfire and Fw 190 also used power settings well below their Military rating?


Climb rating was used for the P38F.  Just as it was for the Spit IX and FW-190.  What you are seeing is the engine setting for climb only.  Level Speed runs were made at emergency power rating for each aircraft for 2 minutes.

Yes the FW-190 uses it's climb and combat 30 minute rating for the climb test.  Not it's full military power rating, sort of. USAAF power settings and Luftwaffe power settings are not exactly congruent 1 for 1.

Crumpp
« Last Edit: December 11, 2004, 01:54:03 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Angus

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #332 on: December 11, 2004, 01:53:59 PM »
This derating issue will give the LW geeks a headache.
Why?
Well, they had fuel problems late war and had to put up with all sorts of *****...
Anyway, Crumpp bro, I am saddened by your dogfight with Widewing, for I consider Widewing to be a very good and careful source of information.
Regards

Angus
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #333 on: December 11, 2004, 01:58:28 PM »
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Anyway, Crumpp bro, I am saddened by your dogfight with Widewing, for I consider Widewing to be a very good and careful source of information.


I don't either as long as he is putting out correct information that is verifiable.  I certainly have a problem when pilot stories become the basis for aircraft performance.  

Combat is not a controlled enviroment.  There are just too many variables to make a concrete conclusion especially when only sides point of view is taken into consideration.

Just look at the results of all the fights we analyzed.

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Well, they had fuel problems late war and had to put up with all sorts of *****...


Yes they had fuel shortages no doubt.  the quality issue was not nearly as bad though as the early war.  They learned as they went and got better.

Crumpp
« Last Edit: December 11, 2004, 02:07:19 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Widewing

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #334 on: December 11, 2004, 02:30:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
OMG!  And here we see a GREAT demonstration of this argument technique!

Please point out where I say Bong was at the JFC??

Bong was a COMBAT pilot that became a TEST pilot.  Most TEST Pilots ARE former COMBAT pilots!!


Bong was not a test pilot. He was still in the USAAF and was assigned to fly acceptance tests of Lockheed aircraft. Lots of pilots were assigned to factories to fly acceptance tests. This does not make them "test pilots". Acceptance testing is routine stuff, the same type of flying that any combat unit does when receiving new aircraft before they sign off the acceptance sheet. They are certifying that they received the aircraft in air worthy condition. That's what Bong was doing. Routine flying, only to die when the fuel system malfunctioned. He wasn't the first to die to that flaw in the early P-80As, and he wasn't the last either.

YOU stated that Bong was a TEST PILOT. He wasn't.

I stated: "I'm convinced that flight testing as we know it today was more the result of combat pilots transitioning to test pilots in the later stages of the war, through the late 1940s. Guys like Welch, Yeager and Brown had far greater insight into what a combat plane needs to be capable of than any test pilot whose experience was limited to non-combat flying."

You replied with, "Most test pilots ARE former combat pilots." So, you essentially agreed with me. Note that the operative term here is "are". Back in 1944, most test pilots were not combat pilots. Many may have been ex-military, but in what war would they have gained combat experience? At best, they were children at the end of America's previous war. Are you following this?

Now as to that test document, can you explain how it relates to combat performance when combat power wasn't used to measure climb? Let's face it, in combat no pilot is going to be climbing at "normal rated climb power". No, they're going to firewall the throttle(s) and keep them there until the danger is past.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Crumpp

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #335 on: December 11, 2004, 02:50:02 PM »
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Wide Wing says:
Bong was not a test pilot.


What?

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The couple honeymooned in California for several weeks where their stops included Hollywood and the Sequoia National Park before reporting to theFlight Test Section of the Air Technical Command at Wright Field  (Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio).   Dick began training for a new assignment in Burbank, California: testing the plane that would take the Air Force into the jet age - the Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star.


http://usfighter.tripod.com/bong.htm

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After his PR trip, he returned to Wisconsin, and married Marge on February 10, 1945. After their California honeymoon, he went to work at Wright Field as a test pilot, helping to develop the Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star.


http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_bong.html

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He went to work at Wright Field as a test pilot, helping to develop the Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star. He studied jet propulsion theory and learned the engineering details of the new plane for two months, before flying one. After being checked out in the P-80, he flew it 11 times that summer.


http://www.af.mil/history/person.asp?dec=1940&pid=123006479

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Results 1 - 10 of about 9,270 for Richard Bong Test Pilot. (0.36 seconds)


Google it....

Bong died on a transfer flight but he certainly was a test pilot.

Crumpp

Offline Crumpp

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #336 on: December 11, 2004, 03:12:52 PM »
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Now as to that test document, can you explain how it relates to combat performance when combat power wasn't used to measure climb? Let's face it, in combat no pilot is going to be climbing at "normal rated climb power". No, they're going to firewall the throttle(s) and keep them there until the danger is past.


Ohh come on.

What do you figure the odds Col. Stone would have said, "Wait, that is not representative of my airplane!".

Facts are these are trials are performed NOT to sell a particular aircraft or advance any hidden agenda.  

The only agenda these trials have is figuring out a way to destroy the FW-190 in the air to defeat the Luftwaffe.  

So stop with your whining.

Crumpp

Offline Widewing

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #337 on: December 11, 2004, 03:44:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
What?
Google it....

Bong died on a transfer flight but he certainly was a test pilot.

Crumpp


I don't need to Google it, I have the facts in front of me. Bong reported to Wright to be trained as an Acceptance Test Pilot. That's it. According to Lockheed's Chief Test Pilot, Tony LeVier: "Bong, assigned as the acceptance pilot for P-80s at Burbank, was killed when his engine failed on takeoff." Bong was to have had nothing to do with the development of the P-80A. He was an Acceptance Test Pilot, one of many hundreds that went through Wright's program during the war. LeVier is perfectly clear as to Bong's role in the P-80 program in his writings. LeVier ought to know since he was running the P-80 test program at the time Bong died.

Instead of "Googling it" and relying on dubious info without any listed sources or bibliography, I suggest you go to a reliable source, like the P-80 program manager. See if you can find a copy of LeVier's book, "Pilot". It was published in hardcover in 1954. My copy is on the shelf, next to my desk.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Crumpp

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #338 on: December 11, 2004, 03:47:23 PM »
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Bong reported to Wright to be trained as an Acceptance Test Pilot.  



Point Made.

Crumpp
« Last Edit: December 11, 2004, 03:50:31 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Widewing

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #339 on: December 11, 2004, 03:54:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Point Made.

Crumpp


Crumpp, as you continue to swim upstream in the BS river, you ignored my advice to use a snorkle. But please, have the common sense to swim with your mouth closed.......

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Crumpp

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #340 on: December 11, 2004, 04:02:18 PM »
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Crumpp, as you continue to swim upstream in the BS river, you ignored my advice to use a snorkle. But please, have the common sense to swim with your mouth closed.......


You demonstrate maturity beyond your years.

What does an acceptance Test Pilot do:

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The Empire Test Pilots' School (ETPS) is established to provide The UK Ministry of Defence (MOD) with Service pilots for employment as test pilots for acceptance testing duties and for aerodynamics and systems research. The School also trains Flight Test Engineers (FTE) from the MOD and both pilots and FTEs from Commonwealth and other friendly nations. Graduate test pilots and FTEs may go on to contribute to Service equipment programmes as combined test team members, procurement managers, operational requirements staff or in the increasingly crucial 'intelligent customer' role in liaison Aerospace contractors.


http://www.qinetiq.com/home_etps.html

Being a US Navy veteran Pilot as you claim, I would have thought this was a no brainer for you.  Being an acceptance test pilot is very much a test pilot.  It is an important and very dangerous part of the acquisition of new Military Aircraft types.

Crumpp
« Last Edit: December 11, 2004, 04:49:51 PM by Crumpp »

Offline BUG_EAF322

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #341 on: December 11, 2004, 05:12:30 PM »
sigh crumpp

stop the crap trying to be" the" scientific simulator elitist pilot.

u surely made up ur mind and noone is gonna change it

Offline HoHun

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #342 on: December 11, 2004, 05:24:31 PM »
Hi Widewing,

>Despite his tremendous piloting skill and his countless hours flying the Lightning, Tony discovered he was overmatched against the combat pilots.

But it speaks for his test pilot qualities that he cooly accepted the fact and rationally analyzed the reasons :-)

There's a similar story told by Adolf Galland, who had a test pilot with a Bf 109 visiting their airfield on a ferry flight before the war when they were still flying He 51 biplanes. The test pilot agreed on a staging a mock fight and had his Bf 109 outflown by the obsolete biplanes! Galland of course admits that this was only possible because this test pilot had no training in air combat and didn't know how to use the strengths of the Bf 109.

>Nonetheless, test pilots generally lacked even an inkling of an idea what combat flying was really about.

Well, at the Joint Fighter Conference, the situation was a bit different from the mock fight mentioned by Galland. The Bf 109 vs. He 51 encounter took place in the pre-war era, when ideas on air fighting were vague and untested, and the Bf 109 as a fast monoplane designed with little regard for manoeuvrability represented a paradigm change, so the test pilot would not only have had to match the fighter pilots tactical skills, but actually to exceed it to make full use of the new monoplane. Additionally, military pilot training was a bottle neck in Germany owing to the Versailles treaty, so few test pilots had any military background.

When the Joint Fighter Conference took place, techniques and tactics had been long established, the aircraft manufacturers had been in continual contact with the services who were using their products in combat, and exposed to their demands and design requirements for several years. The aircraft manufacturers and their test pilots might not have known how exactly to use their products to win an actual fight, but they certainly knew very well what the combat pilots expected from a successful fighter aircraft, and so the test pilots' votes still carry considerable weight.

In fact, if I compare the results of the JFC to professional (business-to-business) customer satisfaction surveys, it shows the same vagueness with regard to the individual questions, but modern-day surveys generate quite significant results anyhow, and I'd view the Joint Fighter Conference in a similar way. Only one vote for the P-38 as "best fighter" is highly alarming - we'd have to check how many pilots actually flew the P-38 to how relevant the number is, but if it was flown by more than a handful, there's a message in it.

Of course, the focus of the Joint Fighter Conference was the future development of fighters - they were not assessing how the types performed in service, but rather how they were expected to perform from 1945 onwards. Still, the P-38 was not the only 1943 fighter evaluated at the conference, and the balance in ranking compared to the P-47D and the P-51D is not just a bit in favour of the latter two, but quite dramatic.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline HoHun

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #343 on: December 11, 2004, 05:34:40 PM »
Hi JG14,

Good meta comments :-) But I believe it's the BBS structure that encourages confrontation - I'm quite optimistic about the Wiki concept which makes a step towards collaborative rather than confrontative communication. The Wikipedia is a great example, proving that the concept really works :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Crumpp

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #344 on: December 11, 2004, 05:36:39 PM »
Quote
Of course, the focus of the Joint Fighter Conference was the future development of fighters - they were not assessing how the types performed in service, but rather how they were expected to perform from 1945 onwards. Still, the P-38 was not the only 1943 fighter evaluated at the conference, and the balance in ranking compared to the P-47D and the P-51D is not just a bit in favour of the latter two, but quite dramatic.


Good points HoHun.

The P38 was flown by:

Army - 1
Navy - 9
British - 5
Contractors - 13

The P47 was flown by:
Army - 1
Navy - 14
British - 4
Contractors - 10

P51D was flown by:

Army - 1
Navy - 19
British - 3
Contractors - 15

Interesting to note that with so many Navy pilots flying the USAAF fighters rated as high as they did.

Crumpp