The Forming of Something Great....

[Charon]

Dunno ... I saw nothing really awe inspiring in the attack save for numbers. And there just wasn't critical mass on the defending side to make this work out.

I'm at the point DoK, where some degree of organization and some willingness to fight become awe inspiring. Shubie brought his and for all the talk (over months) only a few were interested in bringing their's.

It's at the point where if your idea of fun is flying around in a small squad and dogfigthing whomever decides to dribble into your furball... well, expect to be increasingly disappointed. If you want action and want a fight you have to bring it to them. They will not come to you. And if you won't work to bring it to them, there's not much point in *****ing and moaning about it because the MA fully facilitates this gameplay and a lot of people have decided that's how they want to play. HTC may change things, then again they may not. So get used to it, or work to take matters into your own hands and take the fight to them.

FWIW I haven't flown a Dora in probably a year, but I upped in one last night for the first mission. I haven't loaded bombs more than five times since I've been here, but if that's what it takes to fight back then that's what I'll do. Or I'll just shut up and play, or go somewhere else like I did when I came here from Gamestorm.

Charon

[rshubert]

The horde mission consisted of 110s, Nikis, one Me-262, and P-38s. (edit) oops, i forgot the mossies.

One group of Nikis placed a BARCAP between the target field and the two adjacent enemy fields.  Their mission was to keep large numbers of fighters from getting to the heavies.

One group of Nikis set up a strike CAP over the field.

The 262 took out radar at the target and one adjacent field.  Strafing.  In a 262.  At 550 mph.  I particularly liked that touch.

The P-38s and 110s were tasked with the usual--VH, FH, ack and town.  That went well.  Two goons (me one of them) were killed by goon hunters, but we got a third and fourth goon up, and the capture went according to plan.  Several enemy fighters made it to the base, but were unable to defeat the CAP and get to the goon.

As Jamusta said, the whole trick here is a little organization.  Many of the Freijagd types don't want anything to do with anything that smacks of cooperation, and that is our only advantage.  A truly organized anti-horde would eat us alive half the time.  The other half, we would acheive our goal.

A good time was had by all.   honored enemies, try again soon!



shubie

[Clifra Jones]

The bottom line was Shubie had more people participate on his side.

Jam & Charon, I liked this whole idea. I think it's great. I only wish more people would be intersted in cooperating and setting up these big fights as opposed to just going out fighter sweeping.

[lazs2]

organization and doing boring intercepts against inept simmers and taking orders is fundamentaly against all the beliefs of furballers.

the main belief being that organization is for people who can't fight and is the enemy of fun.... second being that killing buildings and Ai is not what we came online for and lastly...

that it was better at one time and could be again but that "organizxation" is absolutely not the way for that to happen.

I also believe that only about 10% of the players read here and that probly 80% of the horde can't read in any case.

lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's

[mars01]

Yeah the organized showing last night by the knights was paltry to say the least. I think there were only about 4 or 5 other guys that responded to Jam and Charone and only about 4 total on our vox channel.

The 262 that was a little over the top. IMO we could have upped 262s and there would have been no chance for you guys, but that was not the point. I actually wanted to fight.

I upped with Dipstick since he was also taking a Jug  to start, you know cause I hate being oprganised , then Dip went to get some ice cream and he got cherried by a 262. We did reupp in temps to even it out a little and ran into the nikis. 2 vs 5+. We did ok, was fun, then Dip had to run.

The next run I upped a 4Hog, the whole time I think I saw 2 or 3 greens and 10+ reds, still was fun.

Notice a trend here, No furball all fast rides. Personally I don't think you are going to get a lot of furball guys involved here. It's not their kind of fight. This is more the late ride guys, fast machines at high alt. A lot of BnZ and extending.

IMO it was fun, I like being vastly outnumbered, it makes 2 or 3 Vs 1 seem like childs play.
 
Congratulations you rallied the horde, it does it by itself every day, there’s an accomplishment.  

Trying to get furballers to climb to 20k, fly late model rides and BnZ. Do that and you have accomplished something.

Get your Horde to take early war rides and come in below 8k, then you have done something.

Just telling the horde what to carry and where to go, not that big of a stretch.

[Charon]

organization and doing boring intercepts against inept simmers and taking orders is fundamentaly against all the beliefs of furballers.

the main belief being that organization is for people who can't fight and is the enemy of fun.... second being that killing buildings and Ai is not what we came online for and lastly...

that it was better at one time and could be again but that "organizxation" is absolutely not the way for that to happen.

I also believe that only about 10% of the players read here and that probly 80% of the horde can't read in any case

That's great and all, but that's not the reality of the MA. Until the HTC gods change that (and I have seen no indication that they are considering it) it's not going to get better.

Smaller maps would be great.
Closer fields would be great.
Easier capture maybe.
A return to the Airwarrior war winning concept, or some other similar proposal, would be great.
My opinion on these or yours... ain't our coad.

Personally, I like to fight. But I don't particularly like odds worse than say 2 or 3 to one against me, particularly since I like early war rides and turnfighting and usually don't have 5 or 6 buddies along to help out. Don't like watching planes ignore me, fly 1,000 feet over me to die to base ack killing a building. TS for me I guess if I don't make sure they are denied that option. That means being higher and or faster. Not my absolute 1st choice in gameplay, but actually getting to shoot at planes is more fun than watching them buzz around and ignore me.

Personally, I have avoided organization like the plague to the point of being a lone wolf (flying with a few friends here and there) since 1993. You BK's have already embraced organization far more than I ever have in the past. But, times have changed. So I either quit AH out of boredom and frustration, or I try to take the lemon and see if some lemonaid can be made.

Apparently you guys seem to be having some fun issues too. A number of people are given the threads. Well, you ain't gonna change the hordes. You can work together to make an actual 1-1 huge furballing fight, even letting others who may want to fight to take a fully defended base process do their thing, or you can whine. It might be more helpful to whine at HTC though. If you want the old days back they are going to have to come from there through changes in the game infrastructure.

Charon

[jamusta]

Mars when we ran into them it was pure numbers that got them threw. The rides they were in were not bad. I saw a bunch of n1ks, p38's amd 110's i believe. They were above me below me around me. The n1ks did the fighting while the heavies kept pushing through. Knowing that furballers dont like organization or climbing I didnt want to set up some type of mission. What I was hoping for was that players would answer the call. As you saw none really did. If they didnt want to fly high they could have simply waited for them to hit the base and fight them then. This map was perfect for what we wanted to do. Bases really close. When they hit 80 I was upping from 74. I got shot down like 4 times over 80 before they captured it. I have complained about the hordes and the fact that they attack undefended bases. Last night they took 3 in a head to head fight. Players complain about lack of fights we made one and few showed up.

[lazs2]

I agree with your assesment of how things could be better.   It will either happen or all the people who enjoy the horde aspect will own the game.   If they get bored and leave new guys will take their place.

Ihope that the horde of new guys who don't want to fight is not the only way that HT can make money but if it is then he owes it to his company  to cater to them since it is his lively hood and he needs to make a living.

so far... it appears that most new guys do not like to fight other players if there is a chance that they will be in danger.

as for the BK's... little or no organization there except... we spred out and try to find a fight...  when we do we let the others know.... just a bunch of extra eyes really.

lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's

[A_Clown]

I was hoping this would turn out better.  Guess ill put my 14.95 back in my pocket. I wont play the horde game, not even if thats the only thing the majority wants.

If I remember correctly, this game was formed by people who felt AW was lacking. Perhaps someone disgusted with what AH has become, will make their own better game.

A_Clown

[mars01]

Yeah no doubt Jam on a valient effort.  

I thought more knights would have joined together, as it was there were quite a few if not equal numbers in the area. Unfortunatly, I didn't find many working together or fighting together, other than you, Charone, Dip and Dok.  I guess that is just the knights or where I was at the time.


I think this little expieriment just proves Laz right, the current gameplay favors the Horde and there isn't that much too it.  Overwhelm, drop buildings, drop troops, move on.  That is about the extent to the planning needed.

I have to hand it to the Rooks they do work together and come when called.  Knights not so much lolh.

[streetstang]

What if you guys who feel that the new player base is hopless/helpless, decided to try and help a few of them?

Maybe they do what they do because they do not know any other way.

I know when I first started the game a long time ago I hadn't a clue what was going on. I didnt even know this BB existed until a year or so after playing. I was lost and could just about keep my plane in the air let alone fight in a furball.

 I will admit, 3 years ago or so when I first started, the game was an entirely different game but new players were still new and the vets were still vets. Back then it seemed more people were willing to help out a new player. Squads would adopt new players and help them and before long they weren't so new anymore. Not that this doesnt happen still, but I think its on a much lesser level.

We have the TA and the trainers in there do an excellent job but they can't do it all. They can't be everwhere at once and are not able to help everyone at once.

So if you guys want change, maybe it would be best to help some new players and show them what the game was like a few years back.

You know that you dont need to go 20K to get into a fight and live, I know it, and alot of the older players know it as well. But do the new players understand this? I doubt it.

[jamusta]

Maybe I should swap sides again

[dedalos]

Originally posted by jamusta
What I was hoping for was that players would answer the call. As you saw none really did.  . . . . . . Last night they took 3 in a head to head fight. Players complain about lack of fights we made one and few showed up.

You do realize that the call sometimes comes when we are defending another base right?  I saw the call but at the time I had found a pretty big NOE comming to 103 I think.  I delayed them just enough by killing their three goons and when help arrived, they all died and left.  No sustained furbal was achieved.  In anycase, just because we did not show up does not mean we did not want help.

[Charon]

I was a bit torn with this. I didn’t want to scare people away with all the talk of organization, but at the same time it was clear that organization to some small degree was absolutely required. DoK outlined a likely plan of attack, and a plan of defense/offense. There were some elements that would lead to success, calling for some organization, but not to the extent that any squad participating would be forced to do anything drastically different than what it usually does. Here is what I envisioned:

Guys like the 56th like to do high altitude fighter sweeps. There is a need for high altitude fighter sweeps  to push the horde down to the deck. If they join in they do their thing and contribute to the cause. They even lead themselves in the process. They would have found a bunch of lower N1K2s, but still flying a bit higher than they should have been. Meat on the table assuming they don’t just like to cherry pick the occasional high alt 109.

Guys like the BKs like to furball and create a local meat grinder on the deck. So do I. While the odds were somewhat even I had two or three multi-kill sorties in a Ki-84 over the base without going above 5K. Couldn’t ask for more fun.

Some squads like to fight A2A and A2G, but they don’t like to fly for or against 5-1 odds. Great chance to do their thing and contribute.

However, most of the friendlies at the base under attack were part of one of the knight hordes. The fun lasted for a few minutes then, in the face of initial defeat, all of a sudden the big green bars facing the small red blips off to the remote west got even bigger. Welcome to the gangbang once again. With some MINIMAL organization there would have been a good fight at the next base under attack. Or we could have launched an effort to retake the captured base and created a good fight. The relative odds would have stayed acceptable for fun, if not any real long-term success. The high alt guys, furballers and fighting strat guys could have all done their individual things with the luxury of sufficient odds to keep the gangbangs in check. If the fight evaporated on the enemy side, there would have been enough mass to go somewhere else and create a similar fight.

As to our horde answering the call -- I gave up on that a long time ago Jam. There are no differences between countries in this regard. The only people likely to answer the call are those flying in the small green blips facing the big red bardars. The organizational goal is to bring those small communities together to create a force at least 1 bardar bar in size. When that happens it is a hell of a lot of fun.

FWIW, this gameplay shift is not new to the genre. Been there, done that during the AW Gamestorm/EA era. Today in AH, if you like reasonable odds and old school gameplay you might find 45 minutes total a night with some effort (speaking for myself). With AW it got to be 45 minutes every 2-3 nights. You could log on and not see a single fight worth joining two or three nights in a row. You would sometimes fly two sectors just for the hope of a fight. I have a feeling it will get that way here, probably sooner than later.

Charon

[Charon]

You do realize that the call sometimes comes when we are defending another base right? I saw the call but at the time I had found a pretty big NOE comming to 103 I think. I delayed them just enough by killing their three goons and when help arrived, they all died and left. No sustained furbal was achieved. In anycase, just because we did not show up does not mean we did not want help.

That's the type of thing that usually constitutes some of the 10 minutes of fun I can manage to dig up each half hour of play. Wouldn't it have been nice to then have the mass to chase them down wherever they run to? Remove the option to hide?

Charon