The Forming of Something Great....

[rshubert]

Originally posted by DoKGonZo

Bottom line is the game system rewards Horde play - objectives can be taken by a large group of unskilled players who simply wear down a base through attrition, suicide attacks, and exploiting low-level strategic bombers. To dress that up as "team work" or "mission planning" is inane.

That's not what we did last night, and you know it.  We made a plan, executed the plan, and took your lunch money (at base 80) in about 15 minutes.  No suicide dweebs, no attrition, no screwing around--we did it like it should be done.  And, you know, that's the way we usually do it.  The only added factors last night were the single 262 and the BARCAP.

[Clifra Jones]

Originally posted by lazs2
I agree with your assesment of how things could be better.   It will either happen or all the people who enjoy the horde aspect will own the game.   If they get bored and leave new guys will take their place.

Ihope that the horde of new guys who don't want to fight is not the only way that HT can make money but if it is then he owes it to his company  to cater to them since it is his lively hood and he needs to make a living.

Not all of us. I think some of it has to do with how hard it is to find a good fight sometimes. They gravitate to the crown looking for comeraderie and the hope of a fight with better odds. Granted there are some who will run from a fight if the odds look bad bit not all of us. I can say I'm not one of them as I have the deaths to prove it.

[Dead Man Flying]

Wish I could have been there, but I don't normally get on until after 11pm EST.  There's no way I could show up for an anti-horde party before then.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[jamusta]

Stupid vox went out on me. I felt I was talking to myself. If you did not hear me then I was...

[lazs2]

well... it all boils down to how the game is set up and really.... that is all there is to it.   HT can make it a horde paradise or a furball paradise..

It has been a furball paradise in the p[ast and It is a horde paradise right now and really... there is no way around that for the players...  The game forms the way the players get to play..  

right now you either sit it out or play the horde way.   Even the horde has less control thatn they realize.   The game/reset is "won" by the side with the most numbers... all the horde mentality in the world and all the guys who think they are controlling "strat" are worthless if they don't have very close numbers or a numbers advantage...  The side with the most numbers "wins"...  the side that "wins" allways credits it to something else.

shubie for instance is not realizing that it wouldn't make a bit of difference how he set up the "misssion"  It is how the gameplay is controlled from the setup.   and.... numbers... no matter what... in the end... it was numbers and not skil that form AH gameplay these days.

lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's

[rshubert]

Originally posted by lazs2
well... it all boils down to how the game is set up and really.... that is all there is to it.   HT can make it a horde paradise or a furball paradise..

It has been a furball paradise in the p[ast and It is a horde paradise right now and really... there is no way around that for the players...  The game forms the way the players get to play..  

right now you either sit it out or play the horde way.   Even the horde has less control thatn they realize.   The game/reset is "won" by the side with the most numbers... all the horde mentality in the world and all the guys who think they are controlling "strat" are worthless if they don't have very close numbers or a numbers advantage...  The side with the most numbers "wins"...  the side that "wins" allways credits it to something else.

shubie for instance is not realizing that it wouldn't make a bit of difference how he set up the "misssion"  It is how the gameplay is controlled from the setup.   and.... numbers... no matter what... in the end... it was numbers and not skil that form AH gameplay these days.

lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's

I still disagree with the "numbers are all there is".  It is plainly not true.  I have seen times when we Bish had numbers, could not get it together, and still got pushed around the map.  You have too.

And the gameplay isn't controlled.  If you can convince the majority of players to go to a furballing format, that's where it will go.  A year ago, we were talking about how FesterMA was going to restore the primacy of air-to-air combat, and look what happened.  Last night's exercise was on FesterMA.  The only thing that was added was a dedicated BARCAP to block the adjacent fields.  If the fight was on Pizza, I probably wouldn't need to do that.

Why do you think it wouldn't make a difference how and or if the mission was set up?  You guys are always biotching about the conga lines and the attrition battle, but the fact is the lemmings almost never capture a base.  Over here on the Bish side, we run missions for that, at least in prime time when there's a lot of resistance.  And not just me.  There's a dozen o so guys that run missions regularly in prime time.

[bustr]

Why not get them to fly D25's? You can furball 10K to the deck. You just need a few of you to help clear your 6's and cover each other. We do it all the time in the 56th with D25's.

[Charon]

To be honest I don't think we gave Shubie a chance to prove it either way. The BARCAP was a good move. But, it's nice to be able to field more aircraft in the support function than I expected us to generate even with a full turn out. [As I pointed out earlier, it would have been nice to have the 56th about 5k above them in their Jugs in a position to attack.] When Jam and I were flying virtually alone under 10 or so N1K2s on our way to the main field, I kinda felt like that German shore observer in "The Longest day" when the fog cleared

Still, I think if we could have mustered and maintained a solid 50 percent of his attacking force it would have been a much tougher fight. I personally don't expect or even think you need 1-1 odds to put up solid resistance, but you have to provide about a dar bars worth of consistant oppostion to keep things interesting. That lasted all of about 15 minutes.

My comms were screwy too, btw.

Charon

[mars01]

That's not what we did last night, and you know it. We made a plan, executed the plan, and took your lunch money (at base 80) in about 15 minutes. No suicide dweebs, no attrition, no screwing around--we did it like it should be done. And, you know, that's the way we usually do it. The only added factors last night were the single 262 and the BARCAP.

LOL, ok Shub next time we go to a part of the map where there isnt much happening, we both get equal numbers then try it out.  I'd like to see what would happen then.  Like I said earlier the more people you have the less you need some great strategery.  The small the group the more you have to organize and plan.

Last night you had numerical supremacy and that was the determining factor.  Your planning might attribute to about 5% of the outcome.  

And the gameplay isn't controlled. If you can convince the majority of players to go to a furballing format, that's where it will go. A year ago, we were talking about how FesterMA was going to restore the primacy of air-to-air combat, and look what happened.

No we said Fester map would produce more fights for those that wanted to fight.  No one ever said it would stop the horde mongers from hording.

The only thing that was added was a dedicated BARCAP to block the adjacent fields. If the fight was on Pizza, I probably wouldn't need to do that.

You didn't need to do it last night either because there weren't enough knights upping to warrant it.  But the fact that you were able to send two units away from the main attack and still attack with large numbers proves it was all about the numbers.

Why do you think it wouldn't make a difference how and or if the mission was set up?

Again, if you have limited resources then mission planning is important because if you waste a run your screwed.  When you have horde numbers who cares what the mission is all you have to do is kill VH, Ack, City and if your lame at capping the FHs.  Game over.  If you have 20 guys dropping on three things how hard is that to plan?

[mars01]

When Jam and I were flying virtually alone under 15 or so N1K2s on our way to the main field, I kinda felt like that German shore observer in "The Longest day" when the fog cleared  

Still, I think if we could have mustered and maintained a solid 50 percent of his attacking force it would have been a much tougher fight. I personally don't expect or even think you need 1-1 odds to put up solid resistance, but you have to provide about a dar bars worth of consistant oppostion to keep things interesting. That lasted all of about 15 minutes.
 

Sounds like the same story me and Dipstick could tell.  2 guys against 6 Nikis.  Then when we got through those guys we found at least 10 to 15 at the base.

I also agree if we had half of the attacking we would have put up a decent fight and it would have been fun.

I kinda felt like that German shore observer in "The Longest day" when the fog cleared  

LOL great scene.  I just finished "Fighter Boys" about brit fighter command, inception through the BOB.  Obviousely the brits were undermanned, they talk about small groups of Hurris or Spits taking on 50 german bombers escorted by 100 109s or 110s .  Felt like that last night lol.

[Charon]

I wouldn't mind trying it again on a Sunday perhaps, maybe next Sunday. But I'm a bit discouraged about having another no show.  For the short time there was action it was a lot of fun and what I hope for out of this game. The rest of the time I was up it was a discouraging drag, dancing around a red swarm trying to drag one or two out and getting killed by one of the many that decided to "help out" any time I got one into a dogfight.

Charon

[Charon]

Last night you had numerical supremacy and that was the determining factor.

Yeah, but that's our problem to overcome. I fully expected Shubie to have large numbers, and likely some degree of superior numbers. Our dedicated movement was anemic.

Perhaps the solution, at least a personal one, is to set up an anti-horde horde squad, and work to build it over time. No country affiliation (rotate each month/squad night go to the weakest country at log on), no scores or rank concerns (individual or squad), no winning the war concerns -- just a dedication to the battle. And, an encouragement of proper A2A and even A2G tactics. Perhaps even a strong focus on the mentoring of new players. No strict structure, strategy by suggestion and concensus, room for a variety of gameply preferences as long as the goal it to look for the biggest red bar and go from there.

Charon

[rshubert]

The numbers weren't taht large, mars.  We had 41 in the mission.  Divided up into 24 or so Nikis, 3 goons, and the rest heavies.

Comfort yourself with the delusion that planning has no effect on the outcome.  It makes it easier for me to roll you, like we did last night.  Charon states that he felt overwhelmed.  He was supposed to feel that way.

Let's look at this like another popular game...say, soccer (football for you guys on the other side of the pond).

Your style is every player kicking the ball around, blocking people on the other team, and brawling in the center of the field.  Our style is to plan plays, make a concerted move against you, and score goals through teamwork.

Which is more likely to produce a win?

[mars01]

Yeah, but that's our problem to overcome. I fully expected Shubie to have large numbers, and likely some degree of superior numbers. Our dedicated movement was anemic.

Yeah I totally agree it is our problem, but to say and believe something like ...

We made a plan, executed the plan, and took your lunch money (at base 80) in about 15 minutes.

is kind of rediculous.  

I give them credit for being able to get everyone rallied to the cause.

I also wish more poeple were on this BB and that we had seperate country BBs so we could discuss country tactics and make plans.  I guess that would be email lol.

[rshubert]

Originally posted by Charon
Yeah, but that's our problem to overcome. I fully expected Shubie to have large numbers, and likely some degree of superior numbers. Our dedicated movement was anemic.

Perhaps the solution, at least a personal one, is to set up an anti-horde horde squad, and work to build it over time. No country affiliation (rotate each month/squad night go to the weakest country at log on), no scores or rank concerns (individual or squad), no winning the war concerns -- just a dedication to the battle. And, an encouragement of proper A2A and even A2G tactics. Perhaps even a strong focus on the mentoring of new players. No strict structure, strategy by suggestion and concensus, room for a variety of gameply preferences as long as the goal it to look for the biggest red bar and go from there.

Charon

Yesssss! We will all have a ball!