Flying at 20k

[DoKGonZo]

Most people suck above 20K. Partly because its a different skill set requiring a different kind of timing. Teamwork is really important up there. And the kind of flying is very different - mistakes aren't as easy to make up for since you don't have as much horsepower on tap.

But I agree with all but one (obvious) opinion here. 99% of the people I run into at 20K or above are transiting there to avoid a fight and, if engaged, will beeline for the nearest toolshed to drop their ord or strafe. I don't pursue below 15K because (a) it's a waste of my time and (b) there's usually friendlies milling around at 10K to deal with him.

Likewise, most of the pork orgy types make their mass Jabo runs ... and I think their brains seize up or something once their racks are empty. Whatever (marginal) skill they display in diveboming with a P51 from 20K is quickly compensated for by some of the worst flying and tactics after that drop. I guess because they're already "won", huh?

[101ABN]

i like cheese.... and cheese sandwiches.

[bustr]

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Most people suck above 20K. Partly because its a different skill set requiring a different kind of timing. Teamwork is really important up there. And the kind of flying is very different - mistakes aren't as easy to make up for since you don't have as much horsepower on tap.

But I agree with all but one (obvious) opinion here. 99% of the people I run into at 20K or above are transiting there to avoid a fight and, if engaged, will beeline for the nearest toolshed to drop their ord or strafe. I don't pursue below 15K because (a) it's a waste of my time and (b) there's usually friendlies milling around at 10K to deal with him.

Likewise, most of the pork orgy types make their mass Jabo runs ... and I think their brains seize up or something once their racks are empty. Whatever (marginal) skill they display in diveboming with a P51 from 20K is quickly compensated for by some of the worst flying and tactics after that drop. I guess because they're already "won", huh?

Dok, wow we in the 56th often wish we could meet more cons at 20k and above, our Jugs just start getting frisky at 20k... And when you put on the WEP with a D40 20k and above, it just booms along. We fly sweeps at 22k to split the difference on mid alt and being able to climb up to altrunny bunnies.

[Cobra412]

Humble just as an example I've had some folks get shot down in their spit IX/spit V and when they come back they've grabbed a bird such as an A6M, N1K or a Hurricane.  Granted I still have an advantage in speed but now they have an even greater advantage in turning ability and equal to or above in fire power.  

I could very easily have rtb'd and grabbed a turner myself to counter but I'm just not that way.  I'll keep fighting in what I'm in and I'll even take chances and try to suprise them and turn with them.   What's so frustrating is the planes they were flying in the first place were equal to or more capable in most areas.  Because they didn't know how to fly them though they got beat and now want the kill so badly they'll do anything to get it.

It wouldn't be looking to "upgrade" from the Mustang but to grab something that would counter or equal their some of their planes capabilities.

[killnu]

shubie,  i only read you  first 2 or 3 post, but...from what ive seen, most grab to 20k or higher with no intention of fighting up there.   they seem to want to fly over the nme and not engage them.  and the second they lose alt advantage, they dive to deck and run.  quite sad.
now,im all for fighting like ww2, but what i just described...is not.  so, the closest thing is fighting on deck in furball because thats the only place to find a good fight.

i guess some folks idea of a good fight is many on 1, with alt advantage and BnZ the poor single soul to death.  yea, thats real realistic too.        

[Cobra412]

So when guys fly as singles or even in pairs they should be low to medium alt and vunerable to multiple attackers?  I'm not gonna fly into a zone that has alot of enemies in it with little to no friendlies and come racing across the deck or even sit at 12 to 15k so I can get jumped by a group of 3 or 4 just to please the community.

If flying into the zone at 20k means I'll be able to survive an attack from multiple attackers at once then I'm going to do so.  I won't sit here and say I haven't seen folks run from an even fight at altitude because I have.  Does that mean everyone in the community does that, no.  This discussion is no different than past discussions in regards to people who fly to survive and people who fly to play air quake.  We might as well be discussing the realistic play between Fighter Ace type games to simulation games similiar to AH or IL2.  It's like comparing apples and oranges.

[Zazen13]

It all depends on the plane you're flying and the average altitude of the fight you are looking to be a part of. Generally speaking, the worse your plane turns the higher you want to be, plane performance at alt taken into account of course. My rule of thumb when in a speed ride is to be higher than 75% of my enemy. If you are underneath an enemy who can also outmanuever your plane, you are going to have problems if he's any good.

If you are in a plane that can outmanuever 75% of your enemy you only need be higher than 25% of your enemy to be even money against someone with equal skill on average. So, if your in a turner altitude is not nearly as important (presuming the 25% you have alt on are the 25% that can out-turn you). In fact, being lower in a turner has the advantage of seducing an otherwise reluctant but higher foe into engaging you when he would likely not do so if you were at or close to his altitude.

Of course, if everyone followed these rules what ends up happening is an 'altitude arms race'. That is, everyone keeps getting higher and higher trying to maintain that 'even-money' situation in their various rides. Thankfully, most do not abide by my guide.

Zazen

[Delirium]

Generally, the higher they fly the less they can do with it.

Too often, they come screaming in a 450+ias, overshoot, attempt to turn like mack truck at those speeds and die. Otherwise (and most 190s are guilty of this) they make one 500ias HO attempt and extend more than 6k out.

ACM in AH is becoming more and more of 'One pass, haul ass' with maybe a HO attempt somewhere inbetween. Alt is just more of a guarantee they can get away...

I'm not sure comparing WWII engagements to AH fights is possible but the WWII vets would laugh at the complete cowardice of some of these AH flyers.

[Redd]

Originally posted by Delirium
Generally, the higher they fly the less they can do with it.

Too often, they come screaming in a 450+ias, overshoot, attempt to turn like mack truck at those speeds and die. Otherwise (and most 190s are guilty of this) they make one 500ias HO attempt and extend more than 6k out.

ACM in AH is becoming more and more of 'One pass, haul ass' with maybe a HO attempt somewhere inbetween. Alt is just more of a guarantee they can get away...

I'm not sure comparing WWII engagements to AH fights is possible but the WWII vets would laugh at the complete cowardice of some of these AH flyers.

Said that to someone tonight , they call it flying realistic , but in reality they would have been court-martialled.

[DipStick]

Originally posted by Cobra412
I'm not gonna fly into a zone that has alot of enemies in it with little to no friendlies and come racing across the deck or even sit at 12 to 15k so I can get jumped by a group of 3 or 4 just to please the community.

Try it. You might learn to fight.

[humble]

I'm not gonna fly into a zone that has alot of enemies in it with little to no friendlies and come racing across the deck or even sit at 12 to 15k so I can get jumped by a group of 3 or 4

Hehe....

I do it in a Ki-61 all the time...usually at 8-10k though...

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Delirium
Generally, the higher they fly the less they can do with it.

Too often, they come screaming in a 450+ias, overshoot, attempt to turn like mack truck at those speeds and die. Otherwise (and most 190s are guilty of this) they make one 500ias HO attempt and extend more than 6k out.

ACM in AH is becoming more and more of 'One pass, haul ass' with maybe a HO attempt somewhere inbetween. Alt is just more of a guarantee they can get away...

I'm not sure comparing WWII engagements to AH fights is possible but the WWII vets would laugh at the complete cowardice of some of these AH flyers.

There are a select few who know what to do with altitude and can consistantly make shots at 450 ias.

Zazen

[Mugzeee]

Originally posted by jamusta
I am one who used to complain about alt monkeys. I would hardly ever fly above say 12k. Most times I would be around 8k. In my recent quest to crush the horde I have had to fly 20k+ to engage them. I have found that the majority fly that high because it grants them safe passage to their target. Most dont fly that high to have an advantage. I have been flying that high for a couple of weeks and now have the trend down pack. I find that they are unable to fight at that alt. The thin air causes them to stall. The majority will just dive away. Those who are at 25k will simply fly past you. Those that are willing to engage start flopping around, but that is the minority.

If you are gonna fly that high learn to fight that high...

Maybe a new movement is in order.

Like from Al Bundy... No MA'AM

Men Against Alt Monkeys

Your Hoard busting pack is a joke.
The reason the high alt fighters were stalling is because 1. they were on climbout and/or 2 they are heavy laided with ordnance. If yall think you are going to "force the hoard into furballs" and forget landgrabbing your sadly mistaken. They will always find another way around you hoard. Its just the way it is. (Mister big idea's).
regards.

Originally posted by Delirium
I'm not sure comparing WWII engagements to AH fights is possible but the WWII vets would laugh at the complete cowardice of some of these AH flyers.

1. It's not. and
2. They wouldn't
This "Game" is absolutly nothing like WWll. And to even try to make a remote comparison of the pilots behavior in Ah2 vs WWll is a ridiculas notion. If these players were the cowards you claim they are, they wouldnt even play Aces High. I believe that when most players leave the ground with bombs they have a particu;ar mission in mind and plan to do what ever it takes to complete said mission. No they are not interested in acomadating the "Fighter pilot" at alt...hell...why do you think they climb that high? Because they want to insure that they complete the mission they set out to do.
And further more the WW11 pilots had no intention on taking rediculas chances. They flew their missions to the T. More importantly the flew their AC at Alts and Speeds they were designed for. And most importantly. Nowhere in any theater of battle was the entire WW11 plane set fighting against each other.
The reason for the behavior you are discribing is the fact that the AC involved in the engagments are usally very unmatched.

[Tilt]

There is no land grab at 20K+ and the strat/bomber element is lost......... plus boimber formations of b24's or b17's in AH can defend them selves pretty well

Hence there is no reason to stay at 20K during combat.......there is nothing at 20K to defend / attack.

The P47 et al then revert to  latter WWII ground attack roles rather than the high alt escort of 43.

The only time I am up there with any purpose (in a fighter) is in an A8 with 30mm buff hunting.............. elsewise I have climbed up there whilst afk or used alt to get my jabo to target

[Tilt]

Originally posted by Delirium
but the WWII vets would laugh at the complete cowardice of some of these AH flyers.

tooooooooooo many movies