Author Topic: how iraq was, is, and shall continue to be a total f - up  (Read 11083 times)

Offline Crumpp

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how iraq was, is, and shall continue to be a total mess
« Reply #315 on: January 23, 2005, 06:42:07 PM »
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our country was founded on dissent, and i find it rather narrow that you would take such a view rather than focusing on the issues.


It is far from plain silliness, Ju88.  In this country you do have the right to dissent.  You also have a responsibility to keep yourself informed on the issues in a democracy.  Citizens also have the duty not to harm the society in which they belong.

From your opinions on the War in Iraq, it clear you are far from informed.

By voicing dissent on the GWOT without possession of the facts only aids and abets the enemy.  It is exactly what AQ wants to hear and is counting on the fast food pop culture of America to do.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/05/breaking2453389.0680555557.html

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110006166

What you fail to understand is that both sides in any conflict present the facts about their enemy.  These facts are arranged to present the truth they want you to hear.  Their side is never bad.

Even though the United States has many problems, I would say you have never traveled outside of the US or Western Europe if you do not recognize we are head and shoulders above most of the countries on this planet when it comes to personal freedoms.  

Now the question comes down to what you really believe.  Is the United States on some venture to gain an evil empire?  Or is the United States out to reform the Middle East so that it ceases to be a breeding ground for homicidal nut bags.  

If these people gain a country they can be proud of, can determine their own destiny in, and have their own economy with some social mobility, then they will not want to take ours!  So yes, this is about oil.  It's about oil, rugs, brass, gems, and anything else that makes up a free market economy.  Equitable trade is how lasting peace is made.  A system in which differences can be worked out without violence in their OWN country is the end state in Iraq.  It just makes sense, for our security and theirs.
 
Crumpp

Offline Nash

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how iraq was, is, and shall continue to be a total mess
« Reply #316 on: January 23, 2005, 06:59:37 PM »
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Originally posted by Crumpp
"... I would say you have never traveled outside of the US or Western Europe if you do not recognize we are head and shoulders above most of the countries on this planet when it comes to personal freedoms.


I kinda used to take this for granted. Not so sure anymore. Y'all can't even play a ball game it seems without there being some sort of outrage of one sort or another.

There are truckloads of countries where it's safe to say whatever ya want, unless the measuring stick yer using is Botswana or something.

Sounds great though... "Land of the free..." and all that. But... compared to what?

Head and shoulders above other countries wrt personal freedoms? Meh... I dunno 'bout that.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #317 on: January 23, 2005, 07:09:23 PM »
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Originally posted by Nash
I kinda used to take this for granted. Not so sure anymore. Y'all can't even play a ball game it seems without there being some sort of outrage of one sort or another.

There are truckloads of countries where it's safe to say whatever ya want, unless the measuring stick yer using is Botswana or something.

Sounds great though... "Land of the free..." and all that. But... compared to what?

Head and shoulders above other countries wrt personal freedoms? Meh... I dunno 'bout that.


China, Iran, North Korea all come to mind instantly, Nash

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #318 on: January 23, 2005, 07:11:20 PM »
Cuba, Saudi Arabia too.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #319 on: January 23, 2005, 07:12:32 PM »
Fer sure.

But that's like comparing my magical basketball playing abilities to a midget's.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #320 on: January 23, 2005, 07:15:28 PM »
Well, American is like Canada, UK, France, Germany, and lots of other western nations....only there is probably more oppertunity here in America than most other places.

But there are tons of nations that do not allow personal freedoms like we know them.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #321 on: January 23, 2005, 07:18:42 PM »
Nash, speaking of opportunity.....

I was listening to one of your songs last nite. You have a good voice.....destinctive. Be cool to hear some more from you.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #322 on: January 23, 2005, 07:21:50 PM »
Well sure. There are nutty countries out there.

But braggin' about freedoms that, hell, anyone who can hook up the internet already has seems kinda useless.

In other words..... If a country can see your freedom chest pounding on the internet, then they alreay have the same if not more freedoms.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #323 on: January 23, 2005, 07:23:31 PM »
Ah nah... I can't do that anymore. But that's real sweet.

I'm spending the next few years trying to become a combination master fly fisher/golfer.

Offline JB88

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« Reply #324 on: January 23, 2005, 07:25:16 PM »
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Originally posted by Crumpp
It is far from plain silliness, Ju88.  In this country you do have the right to dissent.  You also have a responsibility to keep yourself informed on the issues in a democracy.  Citizens also have the duty not to harm the society in which they belong.

From your opinions on the War in Iraq, it clear you are far from informed.

By voicing dissent on the GWOT without possession of the facts only aids and abets the enemy.  It is exactly what AQ wants to hear and is counting on the fast food pop culture of America to do.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/05/breaking2453389.0680555557.html

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110006166

What you fail to understand is that both sides in any conflict present the facts about their enemy.  These facts are arranged to present the truth they want you to hear.  Their side is never bad.

Even though the United States has many problems, I would say you have never traveled outside of the US or Western Europe if you do not recognize we are head and shoulders above most of the countries on this planet when it comes to personal freedoms.  

Now the question comes down to what you really believe.  Is the United States on some venture to gain an evil empire?  Or is the United States out to reform the Middle East so that it ceases to be a breeding ground for homicidal nut bags.  

If these people gain a country they can be proud of, can determine their own destiny in, and have their own economy with some social mobility, then they will not want to take ours!  So yes, this is about oil.  It's about oil, rugs, brass, gems, and anything else that makes up a free market economy.  Equitable trade is how lasting peace is made.  A system in which differences can be worked out without violence in their OWN country is the end state in Iraq.  It just makes sense, for our security and theirs.
 
Crumpp


that sir was, by far, the best response yet, aside from the accusation of aiding and abetting the enemy.

any good civilization had a conscience.  history shows us that when that conscience is forsaken, then the society becomes its worst enemy.

can you deny this?  

i am not postulating about whether america is a great country.  again, i have said over and over that terrorism is wrong.  period.  no matter where it comes from.

i would disagree that we are the only free space in the world.  it is interesting to hear americans say that.  if i want to hear anyting else about the world, anything that is not immediatly involved in the american sphere of influence, i have to go elsewhere.  the bbc is a prime example.  thier global reporting is hands down far more informative about "global affairs"  than the US media could ever hope to be.

fact is.  america suffers from narcissism.

now, you may claim that such an observation makes me unpatriotic.  if so, i disagree.  i say that it makes my more so.  i care enough to be critical.  i appreciate its freedoms enough to use them,

i have not.  nor will i ever.  EVER.  support the likes of OBL.  

what you say about the mid east is at least honest and i can respect that.  from the standpoint of a globalist, it makes perfect sense.  not doubting that.

one important thing that i like to keep in mind is this.  when battling an enemy, the worst result is that one may actually take on the identity of the enemy.

my concern in the post 9/11 world is that much like the soviets, we have begun to suspect our own people of dissent.

when we speak of squelching that dissent, we are merely pointing to the road of stalin, where all questions against the path are met with bullets.

that is not the america that i love.

nor is it fair to continue to cast the glow of nievity on those who oppose certain policies.  

it may seem funny.  but history shows that it isnt.

would you see me to a wall with a blindfold for my opinion my fellow american?

really?
this thread is doomed.
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word.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #325 on: January 23, 2005, 07:28:25 PM »
Ever see many people posting from China? They have internet access, but are controled severly.

But I know what you are saying and I've never been one to brag about America being the home of the free.

I had an interesting talk with my best friend the other day. I hadn't seen or heard from him in 10 years. I came home and there was a not on the door....he was on town.

Turns out he's been living in Canada for the past 5 years in Kitchener, Ontario. He's a Reverend there and even has a radio show.

I asked him how he likes Canada. He said they will probaby bury him there. He did say that it was totally socialist....terrible even, though he still loves it.

He has some interesting insights on healthcare, taxes and the Canadian system. His parents live in Arizona, moved from Canada.....so kinda funny.

Anyway.... you remind me of him in a lot of ways.....I even told him about you, lol.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2005, 07:31:03 PM by NUKE »

Offline patrone

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how iraq was, is, and shall continue to be a total mess
« Reply #326 on: January 23, 2005, 07:32:12 PM »
As this topic really is about "the total mess in Iraq".
Coming to soon be the "free" elections and soon to be a "proper" Goverment.
If asked to leave, by the Iraq elected Goverment: USA has to leave according to UN resulotion. The question I ask: Would they do it?

Offline Nash

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« Reply #327 on: January 23, 2005, 07:34:28 PM »
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He did say that it was totally socialists....terrible even, though he still loves it.


A buncha years living in NYC then criss-crossing the States for a coupla years - every single state - the difference I witnessed between the US and Canada was basically zilch.

Offline JB88

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« Reply #328 on: January 23, 2005, 07:34:36 PM »
i play chess with people from china often.
iran too.  we have great conversations.

lithuania, bosnia, bolivia, argentina, mexico, spain, portugal, greece, hungary,
japan, taiwan, turkey, england, france, netherlands, germany, denmark, italy, poland, czech republic, serbia, chile...the list goes on.

they have alot to say on the issues.  they seem to have no problem saying it.
this thread is doomed.
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word.

Offline RedTop

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how iraq was, is, and shall continue to be a total mess
« Reply #329 on: January 23, 2005, 07:37:32 PM »
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Originally posted by patrone
As this topic really is about "the total mess in Iraq".
Coming to soon be the "free" elections and soon to be a "proper" Goverment.
If asked to leave, by the Iraq elected Goverment: USA has to leave according to UN resulotion. The question I ask: Would they do it?


"Proper" "Free" in quotes...I sense you don't belive in em. Your fishing for an argument.
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