how iraq was, is, and shall continue to be a total f - up

[Nash]

Originally posted by NUKE
He said you would never see a neiborhood like that in Canada...

Come on Nuke, we got those zact same neighborhoods. In every city.

[NUKE]

Originally posted by patrone
My second thought about this election and the resultion is: This would give USA a very good oppertunity to leave, without being considered as "losers".

My prediction since a while back is : Usa is out of Iraq before the end of March 2005.

well, you are wrong in your perception.

The US is not looking for an opportunity to leave just to save face. We are not leaving until Iraq is secure.

And I say we are there for at least 2 more years.

[JB88]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Please point out were I say that we are the only free space.  Do not put words in my mouth or twist my meaning please.

 

Yes we do.  I work overseas for most of the year.  This is our biggest problem.  We think everyone is an American waiting to come out.  Always has been and always will be an american trait.  Recognize it and avoid it when overseas.  I fail to see your point on this other than to suggest America needs a humbling and should be defeated in Iraq??!?

 

False.  I think you should educate yourself on the recent laws that have been passed.  Most specifically the Patriot act.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act

You will see for the most part, worries about infringement on personal freedom are unwarranted.  Nevertheless the US legal system is dealing with the new laws and amending them as needed to preserve that personal freedom.

Nash,

Most of the Western world has pretty mutch he same choices and freedoms today, more or less, Hence the Western Europe.  Your perception of "chest pounding" is undeserved.

 

Now if you are taking the fact I specifically did not mention Canada as a personal affront, my apologies.

no.  i do not think that we need a humbling in iraq.  i would like to see a success.  truly.  and i think that we have alot at stake there both with our word and with our example.  i do however think that it would, and most certainly will at some point behoove us to recognize our fallibilities before we destroy what we have...see our arrogance before it consumes us...and reach out to the world as equals.  we are.  in every sense.  or, as kennedy would have said, "we all breath the same air".  the basic truth being that we are  human...or as nietchze said..."human, all too human."

as far as the patriot act.  so far we have managed to quell the danger of its exploitation.  but history shows us that it is often such movements that set off an era of totalitarian mindset.

fortunately, i think that the concept of freedom is well enough implanted that we have a chance of keeping it in check...but i do not think that it would continue to be that way if it were not opposed.  power has a way of desiring more and more.  

i think that i have stated here before that my one arguement that i hold for americans is that we do not believe in rule by kings.  at least not here.

it is a fair assertion.

it is also fair to say that when one hears people calling a dissenting view "unpatriotic"  that one should stand and take note, because there lies the seed of the fall.  therein lies the death of freedom.

ill never.  ever.  stand for that.

im glad that i probably wont have to worry about that yet.

[NUKE]

Originally posted by Nash
Come on Nuke, we got those zact same neighborhoods. In every city.

Is China bankrolling them?

[Nash]

Originally posted by NUKE
I have nothing against anyone here or there countries.....but when people try to make my country out as some menace to the world, hellbent on evil and destruction......I get upset....do not like that at all.

I appreciate that.

Fact is that the USA is a great country. But I think it's really starting to screw up. That's maybe why everyone's talking about it. Something to watch, thas for sure.

[RedTop]

Originally posted by patrone
Well as the Election has not been held yet and not been monitored, its outcome might be "weighted". But, that is still left to see. I actully hope for the best. But if only 20% are going to vote, because of security issues, I wouldnt call the outcome "Free" or "proper", sorry

I am only fishing for thoughts about the issue "USA is asked to leave Iraq by leagally elected Goverment", Again I ask, would USA complie with the UN resulotion?

Yes I think they would leave if asked. It has been discussed here already. Would it be an imediate pull out. Just pack it all up and go? I doubt it. I feel thet the Iraqi "elected" officials would want some type of force there to help with security issues until the feel they have a good handle on it.

If they felt after the elections they have a sufficient handle on things and want the americans out , then I say , as a supporter of the war , to bring the troops HOME right away. Let them deal with the insurgency on their own. And , I would add don't go back no matter how bad it got.

Once asked to go , we have no reason to go back their. Unless they became a threat that COULD BE PROVEN BEFORE HAND. Not speculation. Not bad info. Not any reason other than stone cold hard facts.

[patrone]

Originally posted by RedTop
Yes I think they would leave if asked. It has been discussed here already. Would it be an imediate pull out. Just pack it all up and go? I doubt it. I feel thet the Iraqi "elected" officials would want some type of force there to help with security issues until the feel they have a good handle on it.
 

I think that UN could do that part, if it was needed and if The Iraq Goverment would ask.

[NUKE]

Originally posted by patrone
I think that UN could do that part, if it was needed and if The Iraq Goverment would ask.

now you're just being funny.

[JB88]

Originally posted by NUKE
I have nothing against anyone here or there countries.....but when people try to make my country out as some menace to the world, hellbent on evil and destruction......I get upset....do not like that at all.  - nuke

i remember reading a post regarding world opinion about GWB being elected.

i felt a true pain in my gut when i read post after post basically saying..."so what...f'-em"

thats what i am talking about anyway.

we are all here together and we just cant afford, for the sanctity of our countries, our lands and our children to not appreciate that others might disagree and not at least try to see it from thier point of view.

to me, reading such posts was like listening to the old myth of "let them eat cake".  ok.  extreme.  but certainly arrogant yes?

how can we say that we are standing for that which is noble when we cannot respect the right of all men to be noble?

how can we say that america represents the hopes of mankind if we cannot appreciate all that is the american dream...and further back, the worlds dream in others?

our lives are worth so much more than a football game.  (be it tossed or kicked)

the look in our daughters eyes.  

we may wish to defend it.  but they have daughters too.

that is where i stand.  

the common rationality.

[patrone]

Then, the matter of the coalition of the willing, attacking Iraq would be brought up to the International court of Law.

You think it would have legal grounds or be scraped just as Serbias complaint over the Nato bombing?

[JB88]

Originally posted by RedTop
Yes I think they would leave if asked. It has been discussed here already. Would it be an imediate pull out. Just pack it all up and go? I doubt it. I feel thet the Iraqi "elected" officials would want some type of force there to help with security issues until the feel they have a good handle on it.

If they felt after the elections they have a sufficient handle on things and want the americans out , then I say , as a supporter of the war , to bring the troops HOME right away. Let them deal with the insurgency on their own. And , I would add don't go back no matter how bad it got.

Once asked to go , we have no reason to go back their. Unless they became a threat that COULD BE PROVEN BEFORE HAND. Not speculation. Not bad info. Not any reason other than stone cold hard facts.

damn well stated sir.

[Nash]

Originally posted by JB88
how can we say that america represents the hopes of mankind if we cannot appreciate all that is the american dream...and further back, the worlds dream in others?

That's so like, 1970's or something.

You don't represent mankind's hopes... just one version of it.

Y'all need to get off your high horse.

[RedTop]

I would like that very much. UN Peacekeeping. That means none of our troops are dieing in that country and having to listen to certain elements here do nothing but have contempt for them.

Let the UN be the security force there. Let the UN get a coalition of whoever they want to be Iraqi security forces.

We have done alot there. We may very well continue to do alot there. I am proud of the troopos and what they have done there. Unlike some , even on this BBS , I believe in our system. Its not beyond flaws. It isn't perfect. But it is IMO the best form of government going.

Have mistakes been made? you bet. But I feel in a way like Nuke. My country is my country. I dispise people telling me how bad it is. I dispise people from other countries , who haven't lived here. Those who haven't seen the good in this country.

I am a vet. I served proudly this country. I HAVE been other places in the world. Yes they may have freedoms. Not to the extent we do.

We may have been wrong in the reasons (WMD) in Iraq. But , we are spot on in offering a people a chance. Even if they never get to the point that this country is , they will at least have a better life , I believe , than they did before we got there.

Democracy for them will do a ton to hurting the terrorists. And that is worth the fight.

[patrone]

Well, lets hope for these election to be fair and that this whole thing is over with.
Even if I have my doubts, there is hopes.

The Aftermath of the whole thing...........who knows?

[JB88]

Originally posted by Nash
That's so like, 1970's or something.

You don't represent mankind's hopes... just one version of it.

Y'all need to get off your high horse.

point taken.

and i agree.  but understand, i am speaking to americans.  it is not meant to sound pompous.

it is meant to say exactly what you just said.  

i think.  or at least i hope.

it is standing in front of the berlin wall and saying...tear it down.