Author Topic: how iraq was, is, and shall continue to be a total f - up  (Read 8774 times)

Offline JB88

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how iraq was, is, and shall continue to be a total mess
« Reply #90 on: January 14, 2005, 03:07:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lada
JB88 thx for sharing your troughs, i will try to make some more comments later.




personal question:
Do you travell a lot ?


you are welcome lada, thank you.

i would like to travel more.  definate wanderlust.  would like to make my way overseas for a couple of years to do some work and see the world.  would be nice.
this thread is doomed.
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Offline JoOwEn

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how iraq was, is, and shall continue to be a total mess
« Reply #91 on: January 14, 2005, 04:08:32 PM »
America should kill all the terrorist insurgent scum, win total victory in iraq, put a statue of George Washington in Bagdad then blame the whole thing on the british. Yeah!!!

Offline Crumpp

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how iraq was, is, and shall continue to be a total mess
« Reply #92 on: January 15, 2005, 10:05:06 AM »
On the War in Iraq.

http://www.dod.mil/news/Jan2005/n01142005_2005011402.html

 
Quote
But the insurgents do recruit, and they are finding a willing pool. This has nothing to do with philosophy, and everything to do with economics, officials said. Unemployment in the nation is high, and the insurgents will pay people to launch attacks on Iraqi security forces or the coalition. "If someone is supporting a family and there is no money coming in, then $200 a month from the insurgents starts looking pretty good," said an MNFI official.


Let's take a look at the otherside of the story.  Some of the news that does not make it throught ot the liberal media because it does not sell papers.

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/jan2005/a011405cm3.html

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/jan2005/a011305la3.html

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jan2005/n01122005_2005011204.html

Here is the whole lot.  Just check out the difference in the tone of the different networks.   Good news does not sell like bad news, scandal, and doomsaying.  All appeal to our baser human emotions and give into our fears.

http://iraqwarnews.net/

Now lets look at the War Protesters:

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-mersereau011503.asp

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The two main camps of the peace industry
·  The Down With America camp - This is the smaller camp active in America. It denounces any and all things American for no other reason than that's what they do. To them America is bad, every place else is good, especially non-European places. (Europe is suspect, but is tolerated because it is no longer religious. One of America's chief faults is that Americans are still religious.) The oppressions and slaughters that people of color regularly wage upon one another is of no interest to this camp except as another thing to blame upon America. This is the sort that Mersereau describes, although, as I said, he erroneously credits them with actually wanting peace.

This was the kind of pacifists George Orwell described in his essay, Notes on Nationalism, May 1945:
The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians who object to taking life and prefer not to follow their thoughts beyond that point. But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists, whose real though unacknowledged motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration for totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writing of the younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States …
·  The Political Identity camp - The larger camp is equally uninterested in peace. Its motivation is pure, partisan politics. It is universally liberal to outright leftist, but not pacifist. Its members do not object to war per se, they mainly object to war being waged by the wrong people. This is the camp referred to by TR Fogey, who links to an article by Michael Totten with this nugget:
While it is unlikely that leftists [the DWA camp - DS] would have supported the war against the Taliban if Hillary Clinton waged it, it is almost certainly true that most mainstream liberals would support the war in Iraq if she were leading the charge against Saddam now. With only one exception, every anti-war liberal I have talked to admits this is true.
That defines the PI camp quite well: their support of or opposition to military force depends almost exclusively on whether their party is the one wielding it. Totten writes,
After weeks of arguing with one of my colleagues, I finally got him to concede that an American military intervention to depose Saddam Hussein is justified and appropriate. I convinced him by sending him reams of information about the brutal nature of Saddam Hussein’s dictatorship. He really didn’t know, and now he does, and he changed his mind. But with a catch. "This isn't the right American administration to carry out the invasion," he said.

Robert Kagan recently wrote "Yesterday's liberal interventionists, in Bosnia, Kosovo and Haiti, are today's liberal abstentionists. What changed? Just the man in the White House."
Together, these two camps comprise the "peace movement" in America today. It is not possible to grant to either camp the courtesy of good intentions. The DWA camp is virulently anti-American, and therefore pro-fascist, pro-tyranny and pro-oppression, all of which are states of war, not peace.The political identity camp sees peace and war through the lens of whether their own political faction holds power. If so, war may be good. If not, war is always bad.

There are no good intentions to be found anywhere among them.

There are a small number of true pacifists who do not fit into either camp, but their visibility and influence is near negligible. Quakers and Mennonites, for example, generally do not work to undermine America but neither do they support America's wars. However, my personal experience shows that almost all American religious protests against the Bush administration fall into the political identity camp. They almost without exception supported Clinton's war against the Bosnian Serbs and accepted his violent attacks upon Iraq, his cruise-missile campaigns against Afghanistan and Sudan (which killed innocent people) and his invasion of Haiti.

Update: TR Fogey excerpts "Confessions of an Ex-Pacifist" by Dr. David Lazerson, who "tells us how our current situation in our struggle against terrorism differs from the anti-war glory days of the 1960's":
You see, this notion of pacifism gets a bit sticky when one side believes in dialogue, reaching out a hand in friendship, and even compromising, while the other side hates your guts, wants your head displayed on a stick, and would like nothing better than to level your towns and plant their flags all over the joint. Peace only works when it´s a two-way street. If not, pacifism becomes suicide.

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Crumpp

Offline patrone

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how iraq was, is, and shall continue to be a total mess
« Reply #93 on: January 15, 2005, 10:50:24 AM »
UN Charta


Quote
The Purposes of the United Nations are: 1. To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;


Quote
The Security Council shall determine the existence of any threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression and shall make recommendations, or decide what measures shall be taken in accordance with Articles 4 and 42, to maintain or restore international peace and security.


Article 4
Quote
1. Membership in the United Nations is open to a other peace-loving states which accept the obligations contained in the present Charter and, in the judgment of the Organization, are able and willing to carry out these obligations.

2. The admission of any such state to membership in the Nations will be effected by a decision of the General Assembly upon the recommendation of the Security Council.



Article 42
Quote
Should the Security Council consider that measures provided for in Article 41 would be inadequate or have proved to be inadequate, it may take such action by air, sea, or land forces as may be necessary to maintain or restore international peace and security. Such action may include demonstrations, blockade, and other operations by air, sea, or land forces of Members of the United Nations.


Article 41
Quote
The Security Council may decide what measures not involving the use of armed force are to be employed to give effect to its decisions, and it may call upon the Members of the United Nations to apply such measures. These may include complete or partial interruption of economic relations and of rail, sea, air, postal, telegraphic, radio, and other means of communication, and the severance of diplomatic relations.



Quote
IN FAITH WHEREOF the representatives of the Governments of the United Nations have signed the present Charter. DONE at the city of San Francisco the twenty-sixth day of June, one thousand nine hundred and forty-five.
 



Now, wich part in this Charta are you having a hard time to understand?

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #94 on: January 15, 2005, 10:54:50 AM »
Quote
Now, wich part in this Charta are you having a hard time to understand?


Nice info but not really relevant.  

Please point out where it says Member States cannot act unilaterally to defend themselves?

Oh yeah, it doesn't.....

Crumpp

Offline lada

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« Reply #95 on: January 15, 2005, 10:58:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by JB88
you are welcome lada, thank you.

i would like to travel more.  definate wanderlust.  would like to make my way overseas for a couple of years to do some work and see the world.  would be nice.


Cool let me know if you will pass Czech i can show a lot of things around .. if i will be still here, coz im thinking abou tmoving abroad as well... hopefuly in 6 months :D

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #96 on: January 15, 2005, 10:59:49 AM »
Quote
i would like to travel more. definate wanderlust. would like to make my way overseas for a couple of years to do some work and see the world. would be nice.


Hey!

Why don't you make your way down to Baghdad and Kabul, see the real deal!

Crumpp

Offline lada

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« Reply #97 on: January 15, 2005, 11:00:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by patrone
No, thats wrong, sorry Lada. It was a good guess, dont feel discuraged........

Anyone else wants to guess or shall I let Lada have another try?


I know i know i know ... It were evil Mexican indians  .. right ?


better dont respond if im wrong again or i will a shame :D

Offline Masherbrum

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how iraq was, is, and shall continue to be a total mess
« Reply #98 on: January 15, 2005, 11:27:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
How did he continue to look like he had them? He said he didnt have them.. He allowed inspection.. What more could he have done?

Wake up guy.. we invaded on false reasons.. the end..


Only an ignorant fool would believe a single word that Saddam Hussein might have spoken.  You have joined that club.  

Karaya
« Last Edit: January 15, 2005, 05:42:02 PM by Masherbrum »
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Offline Masherbrum

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how iraq was, is, and shall continue to be a total mess
« Reply #99 on: January 15, 2005, 11:29:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by JB88
so iraq.

we did it anyway.

and heres what we did.

we alienated a good portion of the worlds good will by doing a great impersonation of everything that we ever hated about the bloody soviets.
(you remember what happened to them  in afghanistan dont you?)

we swaggered in there claiming that the time was up, when in reality, in my opinion, had we had better leadership we could have easilly formed a coalition worth its salt.

we got mired up in a culture and a cultures problems without the will of those people to act on thier own in tandem.

we showed the world that we wont be satisfied until we are the big dog on the block and everyone else had better get used to it.

we spread our forces dangerously thin,
something that means something when you have an all volunteer army and only 5% of the worlds population behind you.

we increased our national spending by exhorbitatant amounts and have placed a massive debtload on either our children or our middle class.

we have incurred casualties which are increasing by the month.

we have lost the respect of those who looked to us as champions of freedom and fairness by dismissing the geneva convention.  does anyone remember torture being an issue in the first gulf war?  

this certainly doesnt help the iraqis to feel good does it?

-------------


:aok  If you hate it so bad, leave the United States.  

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Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #100 on: January 15, 2005, 11:30:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by JB88
what is a circumventing language filter skuzzy?


LMAO.  You need the have JB73 give you a tutorial on the BBS.

Wow, amazing.

Karaya
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Offline JB88

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« Reply #101 on: January 15, 2005, 11:30:39 AM »
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Hey!

Why don't you make your way down to Baghdad and Kabul, see the real deal!

Crumpp


how hemmingway is that?

: )
this thread is doomed.
www.augustbach.com  

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -Ulysses.

word.

Offline JB88

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how iraq was, is, and shall continue to be a total mess
« Reply #102 on: January 15, 2005, 11:31:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Masherbrum
LMAO.  You need the have JB73 give you a tutorial on the BBS.

Wow, amazing.

Karaya


or, you could just answer the question jack.
this thread is doomed.
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To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -Ulysses.

word.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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how iraq was, is, and shall continue to be a total mess
« Reply #103 on: January 15, 2005, 11:33:51 AM »
how This Thread    was, is, and shall continue to be a total mess

I'm pretty sure this is what JB88 meant... :)

Offline JB88

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how iraq was, is, and shall continue to be a total mess
« Reply #104 on: January 15, 2005, 11:34:08 AM »
oh that would make you feel all better now wouldnt it?

get a grip bud.  i live here.  was raised here.  and i will continue to be critical of that which is stupid about my country.

it is my right.

what a stoopid thing to say.

really.
this thread is doomed.
www.augustbach.com  

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -Ulysses.

word.