Author Topic: China/Taiwan (Read 3594 times)

Raider179 · « **Reply #105 on:** January 23, 2005, 10:31:55 AM »

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Originally posted by NUKE
Sure. Care to explain how China would be able to invade Taiwan?

sure here you go read away

The section you want is under phased invasion

http://www.nwc.navy.mil/press/Review/2001/Autumn/art3-au1.htm

weaselsan · « **Reply #106 on:** January 23, 2005, 10:38:05 AM »

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Originally posted by Raider179
sure here you go read away

The section you want is under phased invasion

http://www.nwc.navy.mil/press/Review/2001/Autumn/art3-au1.htm

The other camp, in contrast, recognizes Taiwan’s qualitative advantage in combat aircraft and warships. Moreover, this group perceives the difficulties inherent in an invasion of Taiwan and grasps the natural advantages possessed by defending forces.3 Although these analysts acknowledge that Chinese modernization could someday prove decisive in a future invasion attempt, they usually place this development ten or twenty years hence.

In other words... go ahead make my day.

NUKE · « **Reply #107 on:** January 23, 2005, 10:39:44 AM »

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Originally posted by Raider179
yeah taiwan has 4 subs, 7 destroyers, 22 frigates, 146 f-16s, 57 mirage 2000's, 128 IDF's and 90 F-5s,

not much of a match at all against china who has 67 subs, 24 destroyers, 45 frigates, 90 Guided missile boats, 150 Amphibious Assault ships, 120 bombers, 400 attack planes, 1400 fighters

You have the numbers, do you know what kind of planes and navy the Chinese have? Most of those planes are trash...... copies of Mig-19 and worse. They have a very primative air force overall, same with the navy.

And as far a nuclear capabilities. Just one American SSBN can carry seven times the total number of warheads carried on all of China’s D-5 ICBMs. The Chinese missles are liquid fueed and take hours to get ready to launch. They are not in hardened silos. They are vulnerable.

The US has 6000 warheads we can deliver to China.

They have one sub that "carries" nuclear missles. They barley got it to work and canceled the others like it. The sub has never left Chinese waters, because it's so vulnerable.

Last I heard, the Chinese may reach military parity with Taiwan sometime after 2008. If you think China could take Taiwan, you are mistaken. Maybe in 20 years they could.

Raider179 · « **Reply #108 on:** January 23, 2005, 10:45:38 AM »

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Originally posted by weaselsan
(1) All subs are electric...no sub is undetectable.

(2) Any airforce attempting to attack Taiwan would suffer unacceptable losses.

(3) The Tiawanese airforce is one of the most formidible in the world.

You have to keep in mind that the Chinese would still have to get large numbers of troops on the ground...they would be at the bottom of the formosa strait.

The patriots where used against scuds to placate Israel in the Gulf war...they are primarily an AA missle and are deadly. One of the main reasons saddam did not use fighter bombers to attack them and chose to use the scuds.

1) I said diesel/electric all subs are not diesel/electric...

2) your right I should have used a qualifier....virtually undetectable

3)how is the taiwanese airforce gonna launch if they dont have runways..Surface to surface missiles and cruise missiles would take care of that...Unless you dont think china has cruise missiles

4) You can use those 200 patriots at whatever targets you want, that is not gonna stop china from acheiving air superiority and thus control of the strait

5)read the Navy war college link I posted about phased invasion

Raider179 · « **Reply #109 on:** January 23, 2005, 10:55:40 AM »

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Originally posted by NUKE

And as far a nuclear capabilities. Just one American SSBN can carry seven times the total number of warheads carried on all of China’s D-5 ICBMs. The Chinese missles are liquid fueed and take hours to get ready to launch. They are not in hardened silos. They are vulnerable.

The US has 6000 warheads we can deliver to China.

They have one sub that "carries" nuclear missles. They barley got it to work and canceled the others like it. The sub has never left Chinese waters, because it's so vulnerable.

Any launch of Nukes would IMO not matter because the world would more than likely end. No Winner.

chinese nukes are estimated at 35-60 minutes fueling time

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/china/df-5.htm

Rude · « **Reply #110 on:** January 23, 2005, 10:55:41 AM »

We all should hope anything discussed here will never take place....the cost is too great.

Might be different if we had allies abroad in Europe other than GB...the rest of Europe would be at Gsholz's house having popcorn and their favorite beverage, delighted at the possible demise of the US.

IMO, we should pull out of europe and stand only by our true friends....the rest of europe can fare for itself....the next crisis I'm certain the UN can handle.

NUKE · « **Reply #111 on:** January 23, 2005, 10:57:31 AM »

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Originally posted by GScholz
No I'm saying this is wrong:

That's the thing with you. You keep changing the premise of the discussion. The USA cannot even hope to successfully invade or "decimate" China.

We could most certainly decimate China with conventional forces. I didn't ever say we could invade and take over China, although if it were an all out war to the absolute death, I believe we would win. If the US mobilized for complete war, I do not beleive we could lose to anyone.

In a conventional war, the Chinese mainland would be at our mercy and they could not touch the US mainland. We could bomb them into the dirt.

What are 2.5 million troops going to do if they can't get to us? It would be a bloodbath in China if we pulled out all the stops and didn't play nice, like we did in Iraq.

weaselsan · « **Reply #112 on:** January 23, 2005, 10:57:41 AM »

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Originally posted by Raider179
1) I said diesel/electric all subs are not diesel/electric...

2) your right I should have used a qualifier....virtually undetectable

3)how is the taiwanese airforce gonna launch if they dont have runways..Surface to surface missiles and cruise missiles would take care of that...Unless you dont think china has cruise missiles

4) You can use those 200 patriots at whatever targets you want, that is not gonna stop china from acheiving air superiority and thus control of the strait

5)read the Navy war college link I posted about phased invasion

I see you don't quite understand how subs work....All WWI and WWII subs where diesel/electric. Diesel on the surface to charge batteries, and electric to run submerged (No Air to run an internal combustion engine down there. With the advent of nuclear power they can stay submerged indefinately.

The piece that you posted comes with many if's to many for the Chinese to ignore such as

There are, of course, a number of big “ifs.” If the Chinese air force failed to gain air superiority, or if the navy could not get millions of troops afloat, an attack would halt even before embarkation. Well before any attempt, if China did not expand its airfield capacity near the coast facing Taiwan, it could not even contemplate air superiority; similarly, if China had not significantly expanded its port capacity in the same region, it could not use effectively the sea lift to be requisitioned from the merchant marine. Sea control would be contingent on the submarine force’s ability to sweep and hold a security corridor from shore to shore; if that corridor were breached, the assault forces would most likely be destroyed en route. If, having crossed, the assault waves could not maintain coherence among the great mass of men and materiel, the defenders would prevail.

Gixer · « **Reply #113 on:** January 23, 2005, 10:58:36 AM »

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Originally posted by NUKE
You have the numbers, do you know what kind of planes and navy the Chinese have? Most of those planes are trash...... copies of Mig-19 and worse. They have a very primative air force overall, same with the navy.
.

Nuke you really have no idea, go visit http://www.globalsecurity.org China has more then a few obsolote Mig19's in 15 years time they are forcasted (with current orders and growth) to have a bigger and better equipped air force (other then stealth) then the US with the latest Migs & Flankers. Add to that the Backfire bombers,AWACS and Tankers which they are purchsing and looking to make under licence.

Try and get your image of China out of the 60's. It's come along way since then even since 90's.

It would be impossible for the US or any nation to win a conventional all out war against China today and even more so in 10 years time. As for Nukes then that would be total destruction for both sides so hardly an option.

~~...-Gixer~~

NUKE · « **Reply #114 on:** January 23, 2005, 11:02:48 AM »

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Originally posted by Gixer
Nuke you really have no idea, go visit http://www.globalsecurity.org China has more then a few obsolote Mig19's in 15 years time they are forcasted (with current orders and growth) to have a bigger and better equipped air force (other then stealth) then the US with the latest Migs & Flankers. Add to that the Backfire bombers,AWACS and Tankers which they are purchsing and looking to make under licence.

Try and get your image of China out of the 60's. It's come along way since then even since 90's.

It would be impossible for the US or any nation to win a conventional all out war against China today and even more so in 10 years time. As for Nukes then that would be total destruction for both sides so hardly an option.

~~...-Gixer~~

I didn't say they don't have modern stuff. I'm saying the largest portion of planes they have, by far is the J-6 ( Mig 19) of which they have maybe over 2000.

Even today, they have a very primative airforce and navy overall. They are building up a modern force though. Maybe 15 or 20 years they will be a world class force.

Raider179 · « **Reply #115 on:** January 23, 2005, 11:10:53 AM »

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Originally posted by weaselsan
I see you don't quite understand how subs work....All WWI and WWII subs where diesel/electric. Diesel on the surface to charge batteries, and electric to run submerged (No Air to run an internal combustion engine down there. With the advent of nuclear power they can stay submerged indefinately.

The piece that you posted comes with many if's to many for the Chinese to ignore such as

I understand subs perfectly. Maybe you are misunderstanding something. When a diesel/electric submarine goes silent thus engaging the batteries it becomes almost silent. This is in contrast to nuclear subs that have the hum of the reactor.

I am not saying there are pure electric subs I am saying the diesel are diesel/electric as opposed to nuclear subs which are nuclear/electric with no options for shutting the reactor down and still being able to manuever for days on end.

someone asked how the chinese could invade. That link is how it is POSSIBLE.

Gixer you are right. Most are by far underestimating Chinese military technology. The Chinese have everything we have but stealth. Including cluster bombs, anti-ship missiles based on exocet, cruise missiles, Anti-air of their own to shoot down taiwans air force.

I am by no means saying it would be easy but unless the U.S. directly interfered in it I believe china could pull it off.

NUKE · « **Reply #116 on:** January 23, 2005, 11:16:42 AM »

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Originally posted by Raider179

Gixer you are right. Most are by far underestimating Chinese military technology. The Chinese have everything we have but stealth.

They do not have everything we have, other than stealth. Not even close. They are considered about 20 years behind the US in military technology.

You are far overesitmating the overall capabilites of the Chinese military today. 15 or 20 years from now, maybe.

Raider179 · « **Reply #117 on:** January 23, 2005, 11:18:41 AM »

name something then... oh I did forget they have no carrier but then again you dont really need one when the battle would take place within range of your land airbases

weaselsan · « **Reply #118 on:** January 23, 2005, 11:20:52 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Raider179
I understand subs perfectly. Maybe you are misunderstanding something. When a diesel/electric submarine goes silent thus engaging the batteries it becomes almost silent. This is in contrast to nuclear subs that have the hum of the reactor.

I am not saying there are pure electric subs I am saying the diesel are diesel/electric as opposed to nuclear subs which are nuclear/electric with no options for shutting the reactor down and still being able to manuever for days on end.

someone asked how the chinese could invade. That link is how it is POSSIBLE.

Gixer you are right. Most are by far underestimating Chinese military technology. The Chinese have everything we have but stealth. Including cluster bombs, anti-ship missiles based on exocet, cruise missiles, Anti-air of their own to shoot down taiwans air force.

I am by no means saying it would be easy but unless the U.S. directly interfered in it I believe china could pull it off.

Actually it's the props you hear. where we had a large advantage until Mitsubishi sold the technology. But we'll leave that for a different thread.

If a sub doesn't engage it's batteries...it doesn't move??

As I said earlier... to many if's for China to attempt an invasion.
losses would make it not worth the attempt.

NUKE · « **Reply #119 on:** January 23, 2005, 11:22:52 AM »

Gscholtz, and those old MIG-19 frames, like a lot of the Chinese airforce, are reaching the end of their service lives.

To put large numbers up and say China has a capable, modern airforce is not correct.

I wonder if the Chinses could even get all those planes in the air.

Like I said, the majority of China's AF is old, and outdated Mig-19.

I'm not putting down China. They are going to be a superpower but they are not one right now.