Author Topic: Extremely Hard to Believe  (Read 2197 times)

Offline JB88

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« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2005, 11:01:05 AM »
one yeager does not the truth make, cool plane or not.  sorry.

read up on your jefferson.  not only will your lightbulb increase its meager wattage, but you may find out a little about what made this country a great experiment to begin with...try some hamilton, some franklin, some adams... hell, add a dash of your own...there are many.

or should we just toss that old garbage out and hand our government over to the nearest wal-mart?

ring ring.  pick up the clue phone.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2005, 11:06:41 AM by JB88 »
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Offline JB88

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« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2005, 11:04:47 AM »
Bush Fails History...Jefferson Predicted Iraq
by Thom Hartmann
 

Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon thought they could bomb Vietnam into accepting democracy. George W. Bush thinks he can do it with Iraq.

But the first American president to consider how best to grow democracies - Thomas Jefferson - had some very different thoughts on the issue. LBJ and Bush would have done well to listen to his thoughtful words in a letter he wrote on February 14, 1815, to his old friend in France, the Marquis de Lafayette.

Discussing the French Revolution, the Terror that followed, and the reign of Napoleon, Jefferson noted that building democracy is an organic process: The democracy movement in the colonies had been fermenting for a century prior to Jefferson's birth.

"A full measure of liberty is not now perhaps to be expected by your nation," Jefferson wrote, about the democracy movement within France, "nor am I confident they are prepared to preserve it. More than a generation will be requisite, under the administration of reasonable laws favoring the progress of knowledge in the general mass of the people, and their habituation to an independent security of person and property, before they will be capable of estimating the value of freedom, and the necessity of a sacred adherence to the principles on which it rests for preservation."

He added that it's nearly impossible to force democracy on a people, and the consequences of trying could be disastrous. "Instead of that liberty which takes root and growth in the progress of reason, if recovered by mere force or accident, it becomes, with an unprepared people, a tyranny still, of the many, the few, or the one."

Lafayette, at the time of the French Revolution (1789), had expressed his concerns to Jefferson that the movement for democracy wasn't sufficiently widespread among the average people in France to take hold as it had in America, and they should thus make the transition via a constitutional monarchy much like today's United Kingdom. At the time, Jefferson had disagreed with his friend, but in this 1815 letter, he noted: "And I found you were right.... Unfortunately, some of the most honest and enlightened of our patriotic friends...did not weigh the hazards of a transition from one form of government to another."

Many in the revolutionary movement of France of that era opposed Lafayette's deliberate and careful push for an organic democracy, rather than a sudden lurch. "You differed from them," Jefferson noted. "You were for stopping there, and for securing the Constitution which the National Assembly had obtained. Here, too, you were right; and from this fatal error of the republicans, from their separation from yourself and the constitutionalists, in their councils, flowed all the subsequent sufferings and crimes of the French nation."

The lack of a truly widespread, average-citizen-based movement for democracy in France, Lafayette had privately argued to Jefferson two decades earlier, could simply lead to a transition from the tyranny of the king to another, perhaps worse, form of tyranny. While Jefferson had, at first, embraced the French revolution, in his letter to Lafayette he confessed that he had now come to agree that without a broader base of support, a sudden change of government was a disaster, and the primary beneficiaries would only be war profiteers and the rich, Frenchmen who were so opposed to democracy that they could even be called foreigners.

Thus, Jefferson wrote, "The foreigner gained time to anarchize by gold the government he could not overthrow by arms, to crush in their own councils the genuine republicans... and to turn the machine of Jacobinism from the change to the destruction of order; and, in the end, the limited monarchy they had secured was exchanged for the unprincipled and bloody tyranny of Robespierre, and the equally unprincipled and maniac tyranny of Bonaparte."

Comparing France to America, Jefferson noted how - unlike France - we had overthrown an external occupier all by ourselves. For American colonists, the repression and occupation of the English in the Colonies "has helped rather than hurt us, by arousing the general indignation of our country, and by marking to the world of Europe the vandalism and brutal character of the English government. It has merely served to immortalize their infamy."

And now Arab leaders like Egypt's Mubarak say that, across the Arab world, our infamy is being immortalized by Bush's unprovoked invasion and occupation of oil-rich Iraq. America, Mubarak says, faces "a hatred never equaled" in the Middle East, even as Iraq totters on the edge of civil war.

It's as if the cycles of history are repeating themselves, and Iraq may now suffer the Terrors that racked France in the 19th Century.

When John Adams wrote to Jefferson on July 13, 1813 about a French politician, he could just as easily have been speaking of George W. Bush: "In plain truth, I was astonished at the grossness of his ignorance of government and history."

Adams added, speaking of those who think they can create empire and have a stable rule purely by military force, "Napoleon has lately invented a word which perfectly expresses my opinion, at that time and ever since. He calls the project Ideology; and... it was all madness."

But like Iraq with Saddam, Jefferson wrote that true democracy would take time in France because the overthrow of a tyrant had been done so hastily. "You are now rid of him, and I sincerely wish you may continue so. But this may depend on the wisdom and moderation of the restored dynasty. It is for them now to read a lesson in the fatal errors of the republicans; to be contented with a certain portion of power, secured by formal compact with the nation, rather than, grasping at more, hazard all upon uncertainty, and risk meeting the fate of their predecessor...."

As we "hazard all upon uncertainty" in the Middle East, Iraq is proving the prescience of our greatest presidents yet again. As Franklin D. Roosevelt said on September 22, 1936, "In the truest sense, freedom cannot be bestowed, it must be achieved."

If only George W. Bush had paid attention during his study of history at Yale...

Thom Hartmann (thom at thomhartmann.com) is an award-winning best-selling author and the host of a nationally syndicated daily talk radio show. http://www.thomhartmann.com. His most recent book is titled "We The People: A Call To Take Back America," and his newest book, based on Jefferson's writings, "A Return To Democracy: Reviving Jefferson's Dream," will be released on July 4th by Random House/Crown.
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Offline john9001

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« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2005, 11:09:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by JB88
did the socially digressive woman hating neo fascist bullyboy say something?

couldnt hear it.

been squelched for some time now.

ahhhh.  

liberty at its finest.

:cool:


that sounds like a personal attack

Offline Toad

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« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2005, 11:12:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by JB88
As Franklin D. Roosevelt said on September 22, 1936, "In the truest sense, freedom cannot be bestowed, it must be achieved."

 


And it can rarely be achieved all in one moment.

One might view the recent large Iraqi election turnout, despite the threat to "wash the streets with blood" by the terrorists, as a first step towards achieving that freedom.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline JB88

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« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2005, 11:12:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
that sounds like a personal attack



against whom?

im sure if it was, they could take it.  i would never level something like that against any imaginary person who wasnt well deserving of such a classification by virtue of thier own rantings.

but i dont know who that might be really.

and i honestly dont care.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2005, 11:45:40 AM by JB88 »
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Offline JB88

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« Reply #50 on: February 03, 2005, 11:16:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
And it can rarely be achieved all in one moment.

One might view the recent large Iraqi election turnout, despite the threat to "wash the streets with blood" by the terrorists, as a first step towards achieving that freedom.


yes toad, one might.  but one might also remain reasonably skeptical without commiting acts of treason.

as i stated before, if we get out of this mess, it wont be by some grand virtue of george bush, i personally cant see that he has any real virtue.  i believe that it will only happen by the grace of good americans cleaning up his mess and making it right.

remember, america isnt leading some grand freedom march where there isnt an economic gain.  we have traditionally sided ourselves with the saudis who have no sense of democracy.  there happens to be a family grudge match
(he wanted to kill my daddy)
and there is pretty good reason to believe that he wanted it one way or another irregardless.

playing upon the fears of the american people to wage a war while the actual aggressor runs free is, imho...ridiculous and unbecoming of a decent society who preaches the virtues of individualism and manifest destiny.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2005, 11:21:15 AM by JB88 »
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #51 on: February 03, 2005, 11:26:29 AM »
Actually, Bush will be the one to get us out of it. He's leading, after all. From the SOTU, it's pretty clear he intends to stay the course; we're not leaving until the Iraqis have a government in place that gives them a chance at it.

Note the part of the speech directed at the Saudis. In the careful world of politics, he took them on pretty openly. I'd say the gauntlet is down. Let's see if he follows through.

The actual aggressor is running, I agree. I don't think he's "running free" though. I think he's being pursued. From the e-mail I get from friends actually on duty in Afghanistan, I don't think the pursuit has been given up.

I think his luck will run out, too.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline JB88

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« Reply #52 on: February 03, 2005, 11:27:27 AM »
it damn well better.

at least we can agree on that.
this thread is doomed.
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To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -Ulysses.

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Offline Raider179

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« Reply #53 on: February 03, 2005, 11:29:41 AM »
We played drinking games to his speech last night. Had to take a shot every time he 1)said freedom 2)said liberty 3)said election 4) mispoke or mispronounced.

first 30 mins we were getting bored but that last 30 woo hoo man I got a helluva hangover. lol

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #54 on: February 03, 2005, 11:41:15 AM »
I watched a show on bloodyridge called Turning point, made in canada it purported to be about the whole campaign but it was really just about bloody ridge.
Then I watched the Barbarians episode on the Goths. Interesting.  The romans let the goths inside their outer defenses then armed them to use them as warriors against some other enemy then the goths turned on them and used their own weapons against them. Eventually sacking rome.  Things sure where crazy way back then.

Did Bush say something? why listen he will just deny it later.

Offline JB88

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« Reply #55 on: February 03, 2005, 11:44:34 AM »
hey osama...wanna play with some flying candles?  here have some of theeeeeese.
your my friend osama, youre not like the others, you understand me. - america. under reagan,

:D
this thread is doomed.
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To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -Ulysses.

word.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #56 on: February 03, 2005, 11:54:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Actually, Bush will be the one to get us out of it. He's leading, after all. From the SOTU, it's pretty clear he intends to stay the course; we're not leaving until the Iraqis have a government in place that gives them a chance at it.
Do you think that's going to happen in the remaining years of Bush's presidency?
Quote
We played drinking games to his speech last night. Had to take a shot every time he 1)said freedom 2)said liberty 3)said election 4) mispoke or mispronounced.
LOL Raider! Did he ever say "We will prevail"? :D

Offline JB88

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« Reply #57 on: February 03, 2005, 11:55:33 AM »
war is peace.  - george orwell's 1984

bombs of peace. - george bush's 2004
this thread is doomed.
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To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -Ulysses.

word.

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #58 on: February 03, 2005, 01:26:10 PM »
not that I can remember. I do remeber he couldnt say nuclear right. he mispronouced tehran and there was something else but its kinda all a blur. lol

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #59 on: February 03, 2005, 01:41:51 PM »
read up on your jefferson. not only will your lightbulb increase its meager wattage, but you may find out a little about what made this country a great experiment to begin with
====
lol what a fool tool.

Keep trying Im sure you will eventually find someone who GaS
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns