Author Topic: Anyone following the Walmart Unionization in Canada?  (Read 4165 times)

Offline NUKE

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Anyone following the Walmart Unionization in Canada?
« Reply #180 on: February 12, 2005, 02:55:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad

Gotta love 'em. Nuke's heroes.


I never said they were my heros.

The fact is they offer a job at a price they are willing to pay. If nobody wants to take the job, then they would have to raise the pay.

You want to take a  position which would force an employer to pay a certain wage? Not just Walmart, but everyone?

What about McDonalds ( and all fast food) workers, movie theater attendents, parking lot attendents, crossing gaurds, tele-marketers, and on an on....? You want goverment tp regulate all businesses and what they pay employees and suppliers?

Why not just go communist and be done with it?

And you say I subsidize the workers? I'd say Walmart probably offers jobs that would not exist otherwise....and they probably generate a lot of tax income for the government which would not otherwise be generated.

But go ahead and blame Walmart for hiring hundreds of thousands of people who would otherwise not have a job, or, if they did, would be making the same low wages anyway flippping burgers or cleaning bathrooms.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #181 on: February 12, 2005, 02:57:15 PM »
Oh yeah.. they're REALLY helping.

Two examples of what I said:

Carolina Mills is a 75-year-old company that supplies thread, yarn, and textile finishing to apparel-makers—half of which supply Wal-Mart. But since 2000, Carolina Mills' customers have begun to find imported clothing sold so cheaply at Wal-Mart, that Carolina Mills could not compete even if they paid their workers nothing!

Since 2000, Carolina Mills has shrunk from 17 factories to 7, and from 2,600 employees to 1,200.

Steve Dobbins, the CEO of Carolina Mills, told the December issue of Fast-Company magazine: "People ask, 'How can it be bad for things to come into the U.S. cheaply? How can it be bad to have a bargain at Wal-Mart?' But you can't buy anything if you're not employed. We are shopping ourselves out of jobs" (emphasis added).

**********

Lovable Garments, which was founded in 1926, had, by the 1990s, become the sixth-largest producer of women's lingerie in the United States, employing 700 workers. Wal-Mart became the biggest purchaser of Lovable's goods; in 1995, Wal-Mart demanded that Lovable slash its prices to compete with cheap imports.

When Lovable indicated it could not do that, Wal-Mart illegally reneged on its contract, and outsourced the lingerie production to Ibero-America, Asia, and China. Without the Wal-Mart market, in 1998 Lovable had to close its American manufacturing facilities and fire the workers.

Stated Frank Garson, who was then Lovable's president, "Their actions to pulverize people are unnecessary. Wal-Mart chewed us up and spit us out."
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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Anyone following the Walmart Unionization in Canada?
« Reply #182 on: February 12, 2005, 03:02:22 PM »
They're the nation's largest employer. About a million employees. You remember any of your history about the early monopolies? They are essentially setting the price of low-end labor all by themselves. and there aren't many options. It's essentially the same technique they use on their suppliers.

The study says they COST government far more than the government receives in taxes. These guys are real good at getting tax incentives (read "no taxes) from local governments. There's stories of how they do that out there too. You won't give us tax abatements? Fine, we'll set up just outside you city limits and put your in-town businesses out of business.

You really ought to spend 3-4 hours researching WallyMart's business practices with employees, suppliers and local governments.

They're destroying the America you grew up in so you can have cheap Chinese pliers for $1.99,

Enjoy.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline NUKE

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Anyone following the Walmart Unionization in Canada?
« Reply #183 on: February 12, 2005, 03:09:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Oh yeah.. they're REALLY helping.

Two examples of what I said:

Carolina Mills is a 75-year-old company that supplies thread, yarn, and textile finishing to apparel-makers—half of which supply Wal-Mart. But since 2000, Carolina Mills' customers have begun to find imported clothing sold so cheaply at Wal-Mart, that Carolina Mills could not compete even if they paid their workers nothing!

Since 2000, Carolina Mills has shrunk from 17 factories to 7, and from 2,600 employees to 1,200.

Steve Dobbins, the CEO of Carolina Mills, told the December issue of Fast-Company magazine: "People ask, 'How can it be bad for things to come into the U.S. cheaply? How can it be bad to have a bargain at Wal-Mart?' But you can't buy anything if you're not employed. We are shopping ourselves out of jobs" (emphasis added).

**********

Lovable Garments, which was founded in 1926, had, by the 1990s, become the sixth-largest producer of women's lingerie in the United States, employing 700 workers. Wal-Mart became the biggest purchaser of Lovable's goods; in 1995, Wal-Mart demanded that Lovable slash its prices to compete with cheap imports.

When Lovable indicated it could not do that, Wal-Mart illegally reneged on its contract, and outsourced the lingerie production to Ibero-America, Asia, and China. Without the Wal-Mart market, in 1998 Lovable had to close its American manufacturing facilities and fire the workers.

Stated Frank Garson, who was then Lovable's president, "Their actions to pulverize people are unnecessary. Wal-Mart chewed us up and spit us out."

Look, the first example is just free market. Are you telling me you want to make it illegal to buy from cheap foreign suppliers? This type of thing has been happening for decades.

The second example is the same, unless Walmart broke a legal contract, in which case I'm sure they lost the lawsuit which followed, right?

The ecomomy is changing world-wide and it's not Walmart's fault. China is the worlds workshop and it's going to effect everyone.

Toad, you sound like you want a protectionist trade policy or something.

And Walmart is not the only player.

Offline Furious

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Anyone following the Walmart Unionization in Canada?
« Reply #184 on: February 12, 2005, 03:10:48 PM »
I am not trying to condone WalMart's business practices, but...


...just how much do you think a cashier should make?  How much should a janitor make?  a stockboy?

Do these low skill jobs merit anual pay increases?  

Does a guy sweeping the floor everynight get so much better at his job that his "actual" value to the company is increased on an anual basis?




IMO, unions reward mediocrity in the vast majority of cases.

Offline Toad

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Anyone following the Walmart Unionization in Canada?
« Reply #185 on: February 12, 2005, 03:23:28 PM »
Nuke,

Walmart is accelerating the process at an incredible rate. The speed at which they are doing this is part of the problem. It takes time to change here and Walmart is seeing to it that our businesses don't get time to become more productive.

Furious,

Walmart employs about a million people. You get one employer that large, it sets the rate for all the rest.

How much should someone get paid for giving you their lifetime?

I'd say that it'd be fair if basic subsistence needs were met with the pay from a 40 hour week.

Of course... Walmart hires very few full time (40 hour/week) employees. And anyone with a knowledge of full time/ part time labor laws knows why.

They're creating an America where most of our kids are not going to do very well.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline vorticon

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« Reply #186 on: February 12, 2005, 03:36:25 PM »
"
Furious,

Walmart employs about a million people. You get one employer that large, it sets the rate for all the rest.

How much should someone get paid for giving you their lifetime?

I'd say that it'd be fair if basic subsistence needs were met with the pay from a 40 hour week.

Of course... Walmart hires very few full time (40 hour/week) employees. And anyone with a knowledge of full time/ part time labor laws knows why.

They're creating an America where most of our kids are not going to do very well."

like i said before, it employs people who are either semi retired, or  living with there parents/spouse...they dont NEED a high rate of pay, nor do they deserve it...and people do have other options if there skillless, theres always work as a labourer who pay 11+ bucks a hour, and hire full time...and with minimal skills people can get hired as equipment operaters etc. which pay 15+ bucks an hour...

Offline Airhead

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Anyone following the Walmart Unionization in Canada?
« Reply #187 on: February 12, 2005, 03:36:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Furious
I am not trying to condone WalMart's business practices, but...


...just how much do you think a cashier should make?  How much should a janitor make?  a stockboy?

Do these low skill jobs merit anual pay increases?  

Does a guy sweeping the floor everynight get so much better at his job that his "actual" value to the company is increased on an anual basis?




IMO, unions reward mediocrity in the vast majority of cases.


I believe traditional middle class jobs deserve traditional middle class wages.

My company ships United Parcel Service rather than Fed Ex because UPS is Union. I shop at Raley's rather than Food For Less because Raley's clerks are Union (UFCW). My underwear is Haines cause they're Union Made, my car is a Taurus cause it's Union Made,and in fact I make efforts to support those workers I consider my peers, because our middle class is rapidly shrinking in America.

Those of you who admire what WalMart does to a Community should come up here and have a look- their parking lot gets more police calls than any area of town cause they allow derelects free camping. They also demanded (and got) almost free land to build their store, bought by the City from a developer for far more than it was worth.

Some day those of you who think Wal-Mart is a good thing, and we no longer need a middle class, will have your own jobs outsourced or eliminated...then you yourselves can start an exciting career as a part time Wal-Mart employee working for minimum wage with no benefits. Me, I'll continue to support the Middle Class of America and treat my employees well.

Offline Toad

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Anyone following the Walmart Unionization in Canada?
« Reply #188 on: February 12, 2005, 03:40:30 PM »
Pretty much what Air said.

We won't solve it here and I won't be alive in Walmart's America 30 years from now.

Some of you will.

Enjoy.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2005, 03:48:16 PM by Toad »
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Offline NUKE

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« Reply #189 on: February 12, 2005, 03:51:14 PM »
Guys, I know what you are saying and I know you are compassionate for the people who have less and struggle to get by. I feel exactly the same.

My point is that Walmart is not the problem. They are not the only place to work for a chitty wage and they won't be the last. There will always be low wages for the people who do those type of jobs, and it's not Walmart's fault.

What's the difference between McDonalds wages and Walmart wages by the way? Why no tears for the McDonalds workers?

And Airhead, why does supporting a union business help more than supporting a non-union business?

Offline Toad

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« Reply #190 on: February 12, 2005, 04:05:40 PM »
Because McDonald's still has competition and WalMart does not? What if McD paid .10 more than Wally? That'd get them employees right? Would the employees be at a decent subsistence level?


How does this compare to McDonald's?

Quote
With 1.4 million employees worldwide, Wal-Mart's workforce is now larger than that of GM, Ford, GE, and IBM combined. At $258 billion in 2003, Wal-Mart's annual revenues are 2 percent of US GDP, and eight times the size of Microsoft's. In fact, when ranked by its revenues, Wal-Mart is the world's largest corporation.


You wonder why entry level wages are not at a decent subsistence level even if a guy works a 60 hour week?
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Offline NUKE

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« Reply #191 on: February 12, 2005, 04:11:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Because McDonald's still has competition and WalMart does not?


How does this compare to McDonald's?



You wonder why entry level wages are not at a decent subsistence level even if a guy works a 60 hour week?


You're telling me Walmart has no competiton? How come I am able to avoid ever shopping at Walmart?

Target, Kmart, Sears, Home Depot, Lowes, any grocery store.......I never go to Walmarts and there is one about 2 miles from me.

And Toad, guess why I don't buy stuff at Walmart. It's becuase the only time I remember buying anything from them, it was a crap air compressor made in China.

Free market. I chose to pay a little more ( in some cases, not all) and get better stuff somewhere else.

And you confuse the size of Walmart to the skill required to work at one as compaired to a McDonalds, where you'd make similar pay and have just as chitty a job.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #192 on: February 12, 2005, 04:18:08 PM »
Like I said, it won't be settled here.

If you don't want to take the time to really examine Walmart and what it's doing to not only the US economy but other economies as well, I'm not going to worry about it.

Just remember that anytime one entity gets that kind of power it's rarely a good thing........ for anyone or any nation or any any.

Sometimes folks have to re-learn their history the hard way.

Enjoy.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2005, 04:41:17 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline oboe

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« Reply #193 on: February 12, 2005, 05:16:28 PM »
Toad,

Have you thought about how you would address the problem if it was up to you?   What do you think of Montana's proposed tax on Walmart?

Offline Suave

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« Reply #194 on: February 12, 2005, 05:37:54 PM »
I don't think Nuke understands the national economical impact of wal-mart's unethical practices.


He's stuck on the entry level employment wage thing.