Would the non "Europe is crap" citizens please sign in ok?

[rpm]

Bag of chips? I detect an Oprah watcher amongst us.

[Shuckins]

Beetle,

After the disaster at Dunkirk, which essentially left the British army weaponless, your government mobilized the Home Guard in order to assist in providing a measure of security until the military could rebuild and reorganize.

Care to guess what the Home Guard was armed with?  Basically nothing.  The small number of privately owned firearms was totally inadequate for the desperate needs of your nation.  

American citizens were asked to donate any firearm they could spare so that the British might have some types of weapons until the rearmament effort got up to full steam.

Donate they did, with hundreds of thousands of private firearms being donated for that worthy purpose.  These guns were marked with red bands so that they could be identified as American war donations.

Sometimes it does pay to have an armed "militia."

As to the argument that it contributes to violence, I would respond that that is purely a matter of culture.  Much of the gun-violence in this country is related to a criminal element and drug-culture that is far more violent than that of Britain.

Switzerland is literally awash in privately owned firearms, since the entire male population is required to complete 3 years of military service, and may be recalled to active duty at any time.  These citizen soldiers keep their weapons at home, yet firearm violence in that country is almost unknown.

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by beet1e

That looks like a Kimber to me, I could be wrong though.  

Zulu7, you are trying to *hit bull****ers here.  

If you seem to like playing go and labeling me a Neo-Con, so be it.   Sod off for labelling me without even knowing me.

I grew up in a family where I'd have gotten my arse kicked for getting caught with a BB gun, knife etc.  I thank god every day for the job my parents did for raising me.   Now that I am 31, married, have a 3.5 year son, things change.   I have owned my handgun for 5 years now (Heckler & Koch USP .45) and love the sport. It is a way to unwind, my wife enjoys shooting every now and then.  For me, trying to get a nice group at 10 yards is a challenge, and requires a skill that I might grasp a hold of in 10 more years.  I will raise my son in an environment where he knows I possess a firearm, not hiding it from him.  When he gets old enough, with ONLY my supervision, he may be the owner of a Browning Buck Mark or a Ruger "Slabside" .22.  

What annoys me most however, are people who have made a DECISION and CHOICE to not arm themselves.  They continue to label LAW ABIDING CITIZENS and lump them in with the Criminal portion of Society.    The flip side is most "Anti-Gun" sponsors, CANNOT own a firearm, for one reason or another.   IMO, you made your choice to not arm yourself, good, now shut the f*** and sit down, and let me enjoy a sport I have started participating with 8 years ago.  

Label me what you want, any of you.   I wasn't raised in a religious family, just raised to treat others with respect without EXPECTING it in return.  I was raised in an environment to respect my elders and peers, and continue to do so.    Some of you arrogant SOB's have a RUDE AWAKENING ahead of you at the feet of the Lord.  <-----Please don't label my Catholic a** a "Religious Fanatic"

Finally, Lazs, if the wife, kid and I make out to Cali, I'll bring my USP out there and we'll have to shoot a few hundred rounds.  

<> all,

Karaya

[JB88]

some people have a strange idea of what it means to respect others appearantly.

thats a two way street there sir.

insults do nothing to bolster an arguement.  IMHO.


personally, i think that the right to bear arms is fundemental guarantee in this country that should never be tampered with for any reason.

i do however feel that there needs to be a strong and direct grass roots appeal to government and to gun owners of all walks of life to accept that there are most certainly elements of our society which use them for purposes that are hardly within the uses imagined in the constitution.

i think that gun laws need to be strengthened with regards to criminal activity.

you should not be able to commit a crime using deadly force, or even the threat of deadly force and get off light.

point a gun at another human while committing a crime.  you should get put in a box for the rest of your natural life.

period.

guns, im my worldview are good for two things.

sport.  (target shooting)
defense.  (the above helps to that end.)

i am not one for hunting as i believe that it is violent and often cruel.  but i think that society will eventually turn that passe' as it has with other things and i do not begrudge my many friends to hunt of thier logic.  nor do they mine.

most opposition to guns stems from the violent actions that a small minority of gun holders partake in.  

statistically, we leave in a violent society.  and so we hear the age old arguement, guns dont kill people.  people do.  that is true.  

i agree that guns are a valuable asset towards ensuring fair and equitable government.  protecting our loved ones and our homes is not too much to ask...

but it is up to all of us... gun owners and non gun owners alike to take steps to ensure that there are no extremes that will be tolerated for the sake of the right to ownership.

it is the violent mind of our country.  not the weapons that kill.

i hear people talk about guns all of the time...what i really want to talk about is how to keep the guns from going off.


88

[Zulu7]

" it is the violent mind of our country. not the weapons that kill.

i hear people talk about guns all of the time...what i really want to talk about is how to keep the guns from going off."

Fair point there JB88

So Why is America so violent?


Now Bustr as for this statement

"You never share your real lives as Toad and Laz do....."

 What exactly would you like to know about me?

I'm 38 ( you can find that on this bbs)
I live in Birmingham (that too)
I 'm a youthworker (oh that too)
I ride a daytona 1200 ( same , on the bbs too )

You can also find out what my father did where I grew up etc etc etc. So I'd say I'm pretty open there wouldn't you?

This is a gaming BBs not a bloody dating site. I don't need to know all about you I just wan't to know your opinion on stuff.

[beet1e]

Shuckins!!

After the disaster at Dunkirk, which essentially left the British army weaponless, your government mobilized the Home Guard in order to assist in providing a measure of security until the military could rebuild and reorganize.

Indeed, but it's comical to think that the Home Guard could have fought back the Germans. The BBC would agree with me, and made a long running comedy series about it called Dad's Army.



Central to the theme of Dad's Army was that Captain Mainwaring believed that his little band of men would be instrumental in repelling a German invasion.

Switzerland is literally awash in privately owned firearms, since the entire male population is required to complete 3 years of military service, and may be recalled to active duty at any time. These citizen soldiers keep their weapons at home, yet firearm violence in that country is almost unknown.

I guess you must have missed the last 99 gun debates! Switzerland is nothing like the US, as it doesn't have a social underclass, immigration, gangs/drugs etc. And their guns are mostly rifles, not hand guns, and therefore not best suited for crime. Britain has all those problems I just listed ^ but does not have a significant problem with guns. A gun crime needs two ingredients: 1) nutjob willing to use a gun to commit a crime; 2) the gun itself. Switzerland may well have lots of #2, but is low on #1. Britain has plenty of #1, but is low on #2. The US has both #1 and #2 in spades. Please print this off and keep it by your PC ready for the next gun thread! Hey, I'll be in your state in April - visiting a friend who is eligible to own a gun but chooses not to. Monticello? I looked on the map - may have to look you up!

Masher, yes I think one of the guns (probably that one) was a Kimber. The .22 was a "Witness" I think Lazs called it. The other semiauto (probably this one) was .45 calibre, but I think Lazs said he had converted it in some way. The third gun was the .44 Magnum.

Originally posted by lazs2
Beet.. your crime rate and homicide rate was going down before the latest ban... it then took a trend upward after the ban and is not trending downward.

Lazs, you brighten up my days! When our homicide rate remains static, you claim it's going up, and when your homicide rate goes up, you claim it's going down!

Britain's homicide tally has varied between about 720 in 1991 and closer to 900 in 2002/2003. In 2003/2004, the tally dropped by 18%. The "trend" in 2002/2003 was caused by the 172 murders committed by Dr. Harold Shipman ALL being recorded in that year's figures. Don't forget, our population has increased since 1991 just as yours has. I can't be arsed to research exact details from authoritative sources because you always ignore them anyway. But in point of fact, our gun homicide dropped by 20% in 2003 - from 85 in 2002 to 68. But I suspect this will just be another blip. More data over a longer period of time is needed to perform any meaningful trend analysis.

Despite the fact that your homicide went up between 2000 and 2003, you claim it went down. But the number of homicides rose by 9% in that period, whereas the US Census Bureau reports that population rose by only 4.7%. Refer to our discussion last October on this page. (Contains actual FBI data, as opposed to Elfie style hearsay)

And the lot of you!!! I have never suggested that Americans should be made to give up their guns. I agree the penalties for misuse should be harsh. My stance in these gun debates is summed up in my sig. We have had gun control ever since my grandparents' generation. It passes relatively unopposed because of the extreme minority of people who have any interest in owning a gun.

Basically, when it comes to guns in Britain, most people couldn't give a fork. I enjoyed my day out with Lazs though.

I have never said that guns make people into criminals (except where they're not allowed) but guns do make criminals into much more dangerous criminals.

[lazs2]

beetle... so your homicide rate has stayed fairly stable or gone up and down with some spikes.  

bustr..  I think zulu feels that he is getting me and toad upset but nash is on to us.   I feel a little guilty for winding zulu up tho... he is an excitable boy with a lot of set ideas that he has some sort of supprot group for... must hang out with a lot of women I would guess... he seems genuinely befuddled when his ironclad effeminate socialist ideas are not greeted with open arms here.

oh... and that is a kimber custom eclipse .45  and... when I grew up most of the teens had guns in their closet or leaned up against a bedroom wall... we were taught gun safety.

Nash gets it.. he gets wound up once in a while but knows when to retreat.  I have met toad and beetle.  enjoy talking to them both.   Because I find some of a persons vioews assinine does not mean that I can't enjoy the person on other things.  Nash can be amusing and informative but zulu.... at least so far... is a waste.  

he cries huge alligator tears over how badly he is treated yet... even the first lines of this thread he started are meant to diminish others beliefs.

lazs

[beet1e]

Well that's very nice, Lazs.

I wonder if you might be interested in joining me in a business venture. I would like to open a chain of Belgian Patisseries. I could open one in Dixon next to that Mexican place, and you could run it for me.

[Saintaw]

I could recommend you a good 'brussels sprout' dealer if you need to.

[storch]

Liberal Pinheads

[Suave]

I'm conditioned to respond with insolence

[rpm]

Just think what America would be like if we did'nt have liberals. We would still be in the depression. Negroes would still be drinking from seperate water fountains. Over 1/2 of rural residents would be without electricity. There would be no such thing as overtime. The majority of elderly would be without any means of support or healthcare.

See a pattern?

[Holden McGroin]

And without conservatives, industry would not have built the economy that could go into or recover from depression,

There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible.  -- Henry Ford

Negroes would still be slaves, or at least the elimination of slavery would have been delayed, let alone Jim Crow...

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.-- Abraham Lincoln

"If God now wills the removal of a great wrong, and wills also that we of the North as well as you of the South, shall pay fairly for our complicity in that wrong, impartial history will find therein new cause to attest and revere the justice and goodness of God." –Abraham Lincoln

and there would be no need for the electrification of rural or urban America.

My main purpose in life is to make enough money to create ever more inventions.... Thomas Edison

[mietla]

Originally posted by rpm
Just think what America would be like if we did'nt have liberals. We would still be in the depression. Negroes would still be drinking from seperate water fountains. Over 1/2 of rural residents would be without electricity. There would be no such thing as overtime. The majority of elderly would be without any means of support or healthcare.

See a pattern?

you forgot about sliced bread.

[Shuckins]

Beetle,

I think you missed my point there my man.  I wasn't trying to prove that the Home Guard could take on the Wehrmacht.  They were never intended to.  Their task was to provide security forces.

How much security do you think they could have provided with no weapons?  Besides, if memory serves, the weapons that American citizens sent to Britain were used to equip not only the Home Guard but the British Army as well...at least until suitable replacements could be procured to replace those lost at Dunkirk.

However, never underestimate the power of an armed citizenry to resist an invader.  Russian partisans inflicted heavy casualties on the Germans and caused serious disruptions in their lines of supply.

In the case of Switzerland, I'd say it matters little what TYPE of weapons they have.  Any weapon can be misused by criminal and/or gang elements.  True, thugs in the U.S. seldom used rifles or military style weapons in the pursuit of their liveli"hoods."  

That proves zilch, nada, nothing.  Their weapons of choice are 9mm pistols and shotguns.  There are a number of reasons for this.  First, they like 9mms because they're considered scary and sexy.  Second, they can fire off a number of shots in fast succession.  Third, shotguns are used when they're really serious about wasting someone.  Lastly, they prefer these two weapons over a rifle because, since most of them are city-boys, they can't shoot worth chit, and these two weapons give them their only hope of actually hitting something.

Finally, there are a number of countries with high gun murder rates in spite of the fact that the citizenry is unarmed.  Russia is but one example.  Many of the murders committed there are the result of drug and black-market criminals fighting over turf.  That same situation accounts for much of the gun violence and murder statistics in the U.S.

As I said, the differences in gun violence rates between countries are often a result of cultural differences.



Let me know when you'll be coming through Arkansas.  I'll try to meet you and buy you a steak dinner.  Or whatever you prefer.

Just thought I'd warn you though...I'm not nearly as impressive in person as I am on these bbs.  


Regards