Question to Finns

[Toad]

The early part of the war? While the Soviets were backstabbing the Poles and the Allies were doing nothing?

What else were the Soviets doing even before they backstabbed the Poles?

The first pact was an economic agreement, which Ribbentrop and Molotov signed on August 19, 1939.
The economic agreement committed the Soviet Union to provide food products as well as raw materials to Germany in exchange for furnished products such as machinery from Germany.

During the first years of the war, this economic agreement helped Germany bypass the British blockade.

So while our Stalinists complain that the Western Allies didn't do enough, early enough....

they were feeding the German war machine.

[Raven_2]

to Toad

>>The early part of the war? While the Soviets were backstabbing the Poles and the Allies were doing nothing?

Early part of war was in 1938, when allies backstab CZ and then doing nothing :-) Formaly, there was no war at that time, but if France/England/USSR would helped CZ to destroy nazi forces, WW2 might never happened... But Churchill want for nazi to destroy bolshevism and jews/czech/poles/germans/soviets lives were reasonable price for this bastard. Only when he realise, that Hitler don`t attack USSR next to Poland, but France, allies start to resist him. So, allies show by CZ example, that backstabing is a usual for England/France to cooperate and USSR on it own with nazi threat. Ribbentrop-Molotov pact in this situation was an ingenious diplomatic maneuver for USSR. That gives chance to streghten industry and remove border further from Moscow. Should we care about poles lives instead of our own and attack nazi in 1939? This move lead us to lose in war and world dominance for Germany with all Europe/USSR resources and Japan as allies would just a matter of time. So, M-R pact and attack on Poland wasn`t to humane, but it was perfect strategic move for our country.

>>they were feeding the German war machine.

Change grain (to feed people) for high quality machinery (to build tanks) before war - not a bad deal, I think. This wasn`t a gift, but a trade. Very favourable for Soviets.

Ans "raw materials" were vegetal oil, hemp and other trash, not chrome, manganese or something else that can be used in machinery building. I think that this trade were excelent way to weaken nazi war machine and strengthen soviet. Nazi engeeners worked on building machine tools for USSR instead of making more planes and tanks for nazi.

[Fishu]

So the USSR was the ingenious one here and britons were the backstabbers.... how surprising, again
You guys sure can bend everything over into your favor.

I sure hope you guys are just fkning around with the westerners, so you have something to laugh for when drinking vodka.
If not, then I am really really really worried of the future.

[bikekil]

Originally posted by Raven_2
to Toad

>>The early part of the war? While the Soviets were backstabbing the Poles and the Allies were doing nothing?

Early part of war was in 1938, when allies backstab CZ and then doing nothing :-) Formaly, there was no war at that time, but if France/England/USSR would helped CZ to destroy nazi forces, WW2 might never happened... But Churchill want for nazi to destroy bolshevism and jews/czech/poles/germans/soviets lives were reasonable price for this bastard. Only when he realise, that Hitler don`t attack USSR next to Poland, but France, allies start to resist him. So, allies show by CZ example, that backstabing is a usual for England/France to cooperate and USSR on it own with nazi threat. Ribbentrop-Molotov pact in this situation was an ingenious diplomatic maneuver for USSR. That gives chance to streghten industry and remove border further from Moscow. Should we care about poles lives instead of our own and attack nazi in 1939? This move lead us to lose in war and world dominance for Germany with all Europe/USSR resources and Japan as allies would just a matter of time. So, M-R pact and attack on Poland wasn`t to humane, but it was perfect strategic move for our country.

>>they were feeding the German war machine.

Change grain (to feed people) for high quality machinery (to build tanks) before war - not a bad deal, I think. This wasn`t a gift, but a trade. Very favourable for Soviets.

Ans "raw materials" were vegetal oil, hemp and other trash, not chrome, manganese or something else that can be used in machinery building. I think that this trade were excelent way to weaken nazi war machine and strengthen soviet. Nazi engeeners worked on building machine tools for USSR instead of making more planes and tanks for nazi.

Raven, i think we almost get the agrrement?

"but if France/England/USSR would helped CZ to destroy nazi forces, WW2 might never happened"

i could agree with that, or at least agree with the fact that it could change a lot... and maybe save Poland.

"Churchill want for nazi to destroy bolshevism and jews/czech/poles/germans/soviets lives were reasonable price for this bastard."

I would never go that far... as i believe that Churchill would surely lefto Poland under German occupation (opposite to the Allince we have signed) to save his people and do not enter the war (of course i think that Churchill betrayed Poland) but saying that he did it to destroy some nations and to make Nazi's stronger? It's way to far.

"Ribbentrop-Molotov pact in this situation was an ingenious diplomatic maneuver for USSR. That gives chance to streghten industry and remove border further from Moscow. Should we care about poles lives instead of our own and attack nazi in 1939? This move lead us to lose in war and world dominance for Germany with all Europe/USSR resources and Japan as allies would just a matter of time. So, M-R pact and attack on Poland wasn`t to humane, but it was perfect strategic move for our country."

Sure, i agree with that, you almost finally admited (what it obvious... or i just see it that way) that Soviets made an Allience that bought them some time and land.
Was it good for your country? Sure it was Was it good strategic decision for your contry? Of course It helped you to survive the War and "conquer" (you prefered that word ) some onther countries after WW2? Sure
And after all i see nothing wrond in it... i mean you have your right to feel that way, you have the reasons to feel that way and i'm not going to agrue with it. Also i don't think that Poland needs an appology for that.
I'm happy to see that you are talking about the pact you made with Nazis and so on, because that's what happened.
Then we can talk about this or that, but the point is to call tha fact and do not denay them.

There is a different story with murdering POW's in Katyn for example. I don't think that there is any defence for what Stalin did there (and you can say the same way about Pilsudski). Still no comment about your MFA statement?

[Raven_2]

to Fishu

>>I sure hope you guys are just fkning around with the westerners, so you have something to laugh for when drinking vodka.

I don`t drink alcohol at all (cause alcohol degrade sport form fast and I`m train at karate section). Most of my friends prefer beer, vermouth or cognac (armenian). Vodka... Well, it`s another myth. It popular throught marginal layer of society and number of such people decrase fast.

But you right, I`m here mostly to have fun from bla-blaing with people of different culture, not for "defending" something :-)

to bik

>>Still no comment about your MFA statement?

Only a lot of comments at russian-speaking forums about stupidity of our foreign ministry in admiting unproved fact. 90% of poles sure that murder is NKVD, at least 60% of russians - that it was done by nazi. So, we (Boroda and I) are not alone here. Still wish for investigation to go more rapid and all files transfer to Poland side at closest time. It would way more useful that all of this "we mourn your losses" bla-bla.

[bikekil]

Originally posted by Raven_2
to Fishu

>>I sure hope you guys are just fkning around with the westerners, so you have something to laugh for when drinking vodka.

I don`t drink alcohol at all (cause alcohol degrade sport form fast and I`m train at karate section). Most of my friends prefer beer, vermouth or cognac (armenian). Vodka... Well, it`s another myth. It popular throught marginal layer of society and number of such people decrase fast.

But you right, I`m here mostly to have fun from bla-blaing with people of different culture, not for "defending" something :-)

to bik

>>Still no comment about your MFA statement?

Only a lot of comments at russian-speaking forums about stupidity of our foreign ministry in admiting unproved fact. 90% of poles sure that murder is NKVD, at least 60% of russians - that it was done by nazi. So, we (Boroda and I) are not alone here. Still wish for investigation to go more rapid and all files transfer to Poland side at closest time. It would way more useful that all of this "we mourn your losses" bla-bla.

Good enought for me A solid (maybe international and surely with a Russian representatives) investigation would be the best way to go

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Toad


But we all know what liars those Finns are, don't we Comrades?

As to daylight/dark:



Of course, the most important point to remember is that Civilian or not, the Soviets would STILL have SHOT IT DOWN.

They don't care if it's civilian. [/B]

Toad, I need a link to this lies - they must have something about Christ and Russians

Again - read the article Nekto posted. It gives you a complete picture with timings.

I again advise you to buy a map and find Kem' there. Poor Korean flew South instead of North, crossed shore line and flew into Soviet airspace for several hundreed kilometers. Then he played evasive maneuvers with Soviet interceptors and turned 90-180 degrees after every pass. Anatoly Kerefov had to litreally push him to the lake to land, he was threatening a collision, risking his life.

I think you can find someone who understands Russian to translate that NVO article for you. I have no time to do it, and I know that you'll never read it because you are stuck in your usual lies.

Just one thought: using interceptors to identify an invader and force it to land instead of simply shooting it down with a SAM was a deliberate decision. Soviet pilots risked their lives to save innocent people whe were victims of your dirty CIA games.

After target divided on radar screens - Soviet PVO command had all the rights to open fire at it and bring it down by all means. More to say - it was their duty.

Unfortunately - you know how PVO works only from the other end. If Soviet side shot down all the planes that invaded our airspace - Boeing could get huge military production orders.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by bikekil
Good enought for me A solid (maybe international and surely with a Russian representatives) investigation would be the best way to go

Thank you! !

It's exactly what I wish to be done.

Let's leave blind faith to Toads and work together.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Boroda
Toad, I need a link to this lies - they must have something about Christ and Russians

[/b]

Just put  "  KAL 902 Finnish tower" into a search engine. You'll find a lot of new (to you) information.

Then he played evasive maneuvers with Soviet interceptors

[/b]

Too bad that's not what the passengers said. They shoot his wing and he dove... now to a Soviet pilot that may be an incredibly tough evasive maneuver to follow. A 707 in  a rapid descent... couldn't follow him right?

And we all know how well an 707 missing a big part of its wing can outmaneuver a Soviet interceptor, right?

 




 

Soviet pilots risked their lives to save innocent people whe were victims of your dirty CIA games.

[/b]

I had your Soviet pilots trying to fly my wing in the late '70's. They suxxored; they couldn't hang in with an RC-135 in a 30 degree bank autopilot turn. They either overshot or fell inside the turn and got way behind.

So the risk to their lives and the lives of the civilian passengers was mostly the risk of a Soviet fighter colliding with them due to his own incompetence.

If Soviet side shot down all the planes that invaded our airspace - Boeing could get huge military production orders.

Yeah, they were incompetent.  Both KAL 902 and KAL 007 showed that. Mattias Rust in his Cessna especially showed that.

So they didn't shoot them all down but it wasn't for lack of trying.

Cold War Shootdowns

[Toad]

As I said, they were mostly a threat due to their inability to fly formation.

13 September 1987 A Soviet Su-27P Flanker of the 941st IAP, flown by Vasiliy Tsymbal, intercepted a Lockheed P-3B Orion of the 333 squadron of the Royal Norwegian Air Force, flown by Jan Salvesen, over the Barents Sea.

While maneuvering below the P-3B, the Su-27P collided with the outboard right propeller of the Orion. The impact shattered a fin tip of the Su-27P and caused fragments of the propeller to puncture the P-3B's fuselage, causing a decompression.

Because of the damaged propeller, the Orion experienced severe vibrations and the outboard right engine was shut down. The aircraft disengaged and returned safely to their bases. Tsymbal was expelled from the Communist Party three days later, but was reinstated after a day. Shortly thereafter he was awarded the Order of the Red Star. ( )

The Orion's pilot emerged from the incident with no blemishes to his service record and the Soviet Union officially apologized to Norway.

[Toad]

And of course, the difference between us.

1 July 1960 A US Air Force ERB-47H Stratojet (53-4281) of the 38th Strategic Reconnaissance Squadron, 55th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing, flying over the Barents Sea was downed by Soviet pilot Vasili Poliakov, flying a MiG-15 studmuffinot.

Co-pilot Bruce Olmstead and navigator John McKone survived and were taken captive. The pilot, Bill Palm and ELINT operators Eugene Posa, Oscar Goforth and Dean Phillips were killed.

Olmstead and McKone were released from Soviet captivity on January 25th, 1961. Bill Palm's remains were returned to the US on July 25, 1960. Eugene Posa's remains were recovered by the Soviets, but never returned to the US.

1980 A Soviet Tu-95 Bear, flying from the USSR to Cuba entered US airspace and passed very close to Langley AFB in Virginia (it could be seen from the control tower). The aircraft was intercepted by F-15s from the US Air Force 1st TFW and escorted out of US airspace.

Langley is TAC headquarters, as you know. But we didn't kill them; we just sent them on their way.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Toad

Too bad that's not what the passengers said. They shoot his wing and he dove... now to a Soviet pilot that may be an incredibly tough evasive maneuver to follow. A 707 in  a rapid descent... couldn't follow him right?

And we all know how well an 707 missing a big part of its wing can outmaneuver a Soviet interceptor, right?

Almost anything can outmaneuver a Su-15.

After each pass of the interceptor - 707 made a 90 degree turn. Keferov was so angry at the obvious stupidity of the pilot that he asked for shooting him down.

A man in a Su-15 had to force a huge airliner to land! And he succeeded. Good job.

Passeners could say anything, they never understood what happned, I don't think that anyone noticed that sun is at the wrong side.

Korean pilots admitted that they heard orders on the radio and saw the maneuvers of the interceptors and decided not to obey orders. I wonder how they explain why they flew South instead of North.

Originally posted by Toad
I had your Soviet pilots trying to fly my wing in the late '70's. They suxxored; they couldn't hang in with an RC-135 in a 30 degree bank autopilot turn. They either overshot or fell inside the turn and got way behind.

So - they effectively forced you to change course. That's all.

Originally posted by Toad
So the risk to their lives and the lives of the civilian passengers was mostly the risk of a Soviet fighter colliding with them due to his own incompetence.

The main risk was that Soviet PVO command had an option to simply fire two S-200 missiles at it and then collect what was left (not much after an explosion of 300kg warhead with 60000 steel balls) on the ground.

Originally posted by Toad
Yeah, they were incompetent.  Both KAL 902 and KAL 007 showed that. Mattias Rust in his Cessna especially showed that.

The article I quote says: yes, we got so scared after KAL007 shootdown that noone ordered to shoot down Rust. He was tracked by PVO and Soviet interceptors passed him by several times.

How do you see a supersonic fighter forcing a Cessna to land?

Anyway, a provocation was successfull and let Gorby change the top military command. Marshall Koldunov, PVO commander died several months after Rust's flight. He was a best WWII Yakovlev fighter ace...

Originally posted by Toad
So they didn't shoot them all down but it wasn't for lack of trying.

The very fact that you are here telling your propaganda lies proves opposite thing.

Using newspeak doesn't help you. You have to admit that you prepared routes for bombers aimed at Soviet cities in an aggressive war. You side have always been and remains aggressors.

[Boroda]

Toad, telling that someone can survive and be "taken captive" in Barenz Sea is ridiculous.

Again you prove that that spys were shot down over land.

At least PVO works better then your "air defence". Letting an invader fly over your airforce base is a sign of incompetence, not good will.

American pilots unable to fly in formation too? Too scared to force an invader to change course? Incompetent cowards.

I still remember your rhethorics about EP-3 that landed at Hainan. Cowards. I have to say it again.

Remember that Su-24s that two times penetrated a CV group air defence and flew over the deck of American carrier a few years ago? Again - cowardice and incompetence. Good only at gang-banging MiG-15s that have orders not to open fire.  "And this people wanted to have a nuclear war with us!" (tm)

[Fishu]

Originally posted by Boroda
So - they effectively forced you to change course. That's all.

Hmm.. a plane on autopilot... forced to change course..
MAYBE it was heading to the next waypoint.
Forced by the flightplan....

[Toad]

Originally posted by Boroda

A man in a Su-15 had to force a huge airliner to land! And he succeeded. Good job.

You mean AFTER he shot two missiles at it and failed to murder them in the air?  

He didn't force anyone to land. Your fighters lost him and he landed on a lake. The fighter transmissions with control were recorded.

Korean pilots admitted that they heard orders on the radio and saw the maneuvers of the interceptors and decided not to obey orders.

[/b]

That's probably what the pre-printed confession they were forced to sign said. You're familiar with "confessions" in the USSR, no doubt?

The Finns recorded the KAL on 121.5, International VHF Emergency. No answers, no transmissions at all from the Soviet forces. Those lying Finns, eh?  

Separate US intercepts show the same thing.
 

So - they effectively forced you to change course. That's all.

No, in my time flying RC's they never, ever made me change course when I wasn't scheduled to do so. I never heard of them forcing a course change on anyone in my squadron.

We flew pre-planned tracks, with pre-planned turn points. We normally made such turns on auotpilot. IF.. and that's a BIG IF.. a Soviet interceptor actually got up on our wing during the straight and level portion of the track, they always fell out in the autopilot turns. It was comical.

The article I quote says: yes, we got so scared after KAL007 shootdown

[/b]

Scared to shoot? Because it took you forever to intercept KAL 007? You were scared by your own incompetence.

How do you see a supersonic fighter forcing a Cessna to land?

[/b]


Actually, I'm suprised they didn't murder him. They could have done it with wake turbulence most likely.

The very fact that you are here telling your propaganda lies proves opposite thing.

[/b]

Most of us in the RC squadron figure we were just lucky some Soviet putz in the PVO didn't decide to murder us in International Airspace.... like they did to so many of our predecessors.

You have to admit that you prepared routes for bombers aimed at Soviet cities in an aggressive war. You side have always been and remains aggressors.

[/B]

I mapped the radars so they could develop the best ingress routes.

Fortunately, you Soviets didn't advance beyond your captured countries in Eastern Europe and try to enslave more of Europe, so there was no war.

Our SIOP was always reactive in nature. It was "IF the Soviets do this... we will do this." Your side would have had to start it; and then we would have had to finish it for you.

And don't pretend you didn't have ICBM's of the Strategic Rocket Forces targeted on US cities as well. And what of your missile carrying submarine forces when you got those in the 1960s? What were they aimed at?

It was MAD, Mutual Assured Destruction... and you did it just like we did it. To pretend otherwise just continues to expose your totally dishonest nature.

BTW, MAD must have worked.. we're all still here in "keyboard combat" rather than actual combat. Success.