Question to Finns

[Boroda]

Toad, I remember only one person who "jumped the wall" successfully, John Kay from Steppenwolf. Listening to some of his songs I made a conclusion that he's a bloody hippie ("Draft Resister" song) and a nazi supporter ("Renegade" song).

You can also listen to his anti-american rhethorics on "Monster" album.

I am sure that you know his songs, you were young at that times.

Think about it please

My family (Mother's side) lived in East Germay in 50s-60s, so I know some things about relations between Soviet troops and German people from first-hand accounts.

[Boroda]

Toad, how did you come to a conclusion that Soviet side didn't return FDRs from Korean 707? They returned the plane after studying it for some time.

Another "Russians and Christ" data source?...

[Boroda]

And the target did divide, another Su-15 fired a BVR missile at a wingtip shot off.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Raven_2

LOL. And why there need in reservations? "For their own good?" LOL again.

[/b]

I guess this is another example of a 21 year old boy that really doesn't know what he's talking about.

Yes, it is for their "own good", if you believe that being sovereign on their own land is a "good thing".

Here educate yourself:

In the United States, the federal government recognizes Indian tribes as independent and sovereign powers. Sovereignty is the right of a nation or group of people to be self-governing. Indians are United States citizens and also citizens of their tribes.

Like other Americans, Indians are subject to federal laws, but they are not always subject to state laws because Indian reservations are held in trust by the federal government. Tribal sovereignty is established and maintained through a federal recognition program that creates a government-to-government relationship between the tribe and U.S. government.

About photos.

On the first: ever seen soviet uniform? It differs much from clothing of that guy.

[/b]

It's a photo taken at the BERLIN WALL. What uniform do you think the border guard would be wearing? Go ahead and guess. Don't try to dodge the issue either; it's clear the Soviets occupied them, forced a style of government on them and showed them what would happen if they didn't obey (Hungary, Czechoslovakia as examples.)

Second: roughly fake, as for me. And why you think that this is a Wall, but not nazi camp? Cause CNN post of Cold War time claim that?

[/b]

Just for the record, are you adding to your list of rediculous denials here? Are you REALLY denying that people trying to escape over the Berlin wall to West Germany were shot?

I hope you are; it would be even more damning than you denial of the Soviet murder of Polish POWs at Katyn.

Originaly, this guy was at your side :-)

As you can see, this guy was killed by USA troops, occupating West Side. Yep. Some USA soldier think that he is apostle Pavel at the Gates into Soviet Paradise and this guy not deserve to get in.

[/b]

Once again, you show your total ignorance. I suggest you do a search for "Peter Fechter" and learn the real story. There were literally hundreds of eyewitnesses that saw the East German Border Police shoot him and let him lay on the EAST side of the wall, begging for help, until he bled to death.

You represent the absolute worst of the remnants of the Soviet Empire. Thank you for posting; the West needs to see you for what you truly are.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Boroda
Toad, I remember only one person who "jumped the wall" successfully, John Kay from Steppenwolf.  

Yep, I listened to Kay; I liked (still like) Steppenwolf.

I'm glad he escaped from East Germany; his talent would have been absolutely wasted there, if not crushed.

Puzzle on this: Me, the Amreekan AFROTC college boy, listening to anti-amreekan John Kay.

See, in this country, you could do that out in the open without worrying about being locked up. You still can.

I can see why you don't like "renegade". We all know EXACTLY whose tanks he was talking about, don't we Comrade?

You must really hate that

 "Then the border guide took us by the hand
And led us thru the hole into the promise land beyond"

line.  


In a way, I still feel sorry for you poor bastiges.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Boroda
Toad, how did you come to a conclusion that Soviet side didn't return FDRs from Korean 707? They returned the plane after studying it for some time.

Another "Russians and Christ" data source?...

The date please.

They didn't return KAL 007's FDR until 1992, after shooting it down in 1983. It was noted in the world wide press. Did it take your scientists 9 years to read a FDR tape?

There are no such reports of KAL 902's FDR being returned. When was it? Where was it? You obviously have that information?

[Toad]

Originally posted by Boroda
And the target did divide, another Su-15 fired a BVR missile at a wingtip shot off.

You're saying the falling wingtip was the target "dividing"?

Doesn't matter in the least. They shot at a civilian airliner, one they had visually identified, well over an hour before dusk. It's even brighter at altitude than it is on the ground too, so there was plenty of daylight.

[Panzzer]

Originally posted by mora
Too bad they cannot keep me from leaving like in the good old USSR.

LOL... So where are you going to move to after you graduate as an engineer?

edit: added "as an engineer" not to diminish Mora's accomplishment.

[Skydancer]

Are you sure this Boroda guy is not winding us all up.

[Raven_2]

to Toad

>>It's a photo taken at the BERLIN WALL. What uniform do you think the border guard would be wearing?

So - you show me photo of german guy guarding german border. What`s the catch?

>>Just for the record, are you adding to your list of rediculous denials here?

Bah. You show me some dumb pic with one guy holding another guy and claim that this is a "soviet murder holding it innocent victim". I don`t sure that this one even have something to do with Berlin Wall...

>>I suggest you do a search for "Peter Fechter" and learn the real story. There were literally hundreds of eyewitnesses that saw the East German Border Police shoot him

And all this eyes were on west side. Coincendence? Sure...

So, what I found:

<...>a US second-lieutenant on the scene received specific orders from the US Commandant in West Berlin to stand firm and do nothing.

This one according to Time.

Likewise the head of the GDR border platoon stated that he was afraid to intervene, because of an incident just three days earlier when a GDR soldier Rudi Arnstadt had probably been shot by a western soldier.

Sure, westerners don`t shot civilians in German. There is 7 more names beside Rudi Arnstadt - all of them were killed by US troops.

Eastern troops were just scared by this murders from USA that killed innocent three day before that.

In March 1997 two former East German guards, Rolf Friedrich and Erich Schreiber, faced manslaughter charges for Fechter's death, at which they admitted to his shooting. They were both convicted, and sentenced to one year's imprisonment on probation.

Friedrich and Shreiber - typical russian last names :-)

>>Once again, you show your total ignorance.

Bah. It was a joke, Toad. I just revert picture.

>>Yes, it is for their "own good", if you believe that being sovereign on their own land is a "good thing".

The policy was controversial from the start. Reservations were generally established by executive order. In many cases, white settlers objected to the size of land parcels, which were subsequently reduced. A report submitted to the United States Congress in 1868 found widespread corruption among the federal Indian agencies and generally poor conditions among the relocated tribes.

Many tribes ignored the relocation orders at first and were forced onto their new limited land parcels. In many cases, the policy required the continuing support of the United States Army in the West to restrict the movements of various tribes. The pursuit of tribes in order to force them back onto reservations led to a number of Indian Wars. The most famous such conflict was the Sioux War on the northern Great Plains, between 1876 and 1881, which included the Battle of Little Bighorn. Other famous wars in this regard included the Nez Perce War.

Sure, it was their choice :-) Is this the way how famous "liberty" thing works in USA? You place them at reservation by force first time - and still keep them there! "Sovereign" is a good thing...

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Raven_2
Sure, it was their choice :-) Is this the way how famous "liberty" thing works in USA? You place them at reservation by force first time - and still keep them there! "Sovereign" is a good thing...

Reservations are not prisons.  Tribal members can leave anytime they want to.

The reservation system has been a dismal failure as it has been administered.  If it were treated as a corporation with tribal members as shareholders it would have been a much better system for American Indians.  

It is the welfare mentality on the reservation that is presently the greatest problem to American Indians.  Reservation bound Indians are bound there not by chains, but by the good intentions of the government and the related unintended consequence.

The Indian population was treated similarly to the Saxons when the Normans invaded.  Saxons lost their title and land and became subjugated under the Norman conquest.  The biggest difference was European disease against which the Indian peoples had no natural defence.

Look at the discovery of the Hawaiians and many other peoples discovered by Europeans.  Disease wiped out huge numbers of aboriginal peoples much the same way as the Black Death hit Europe.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Raven_2

claim that this is a "soviet murder holding it innocent victim".

[/b]

Read what's there, not what you wish was there. What I said was these people were killed by your system. The Soviet system of government, forced on the East Germans after WW2, killed these people.

What other government system SHOOTS their own citizens in the back if they try to leave the country?

This one according to Time.

[/b]

Why don't you post the rest of it? Show folks what your political system does to the citizens of paradise when they try to leave?

Brandt's words were prompted by Peter Fechter's ignominious death and the events that followed it. Fechter was an East Berlin bricklayer who had waited a year for an opportunity to join his sister in West Berlin. Because of his trade, he was allowed to work near the crumbling wall, and, with another 18-year-old, discovered a deserted lumberyard that was separated from a low stretch of Wall by a vacant lot and the "death strip," a border of sand within easy range of a dozen Communist Tommy guns.

When the pair made their dash early one afternoon last week, Fechter's friend managed to climb the six-foot-high barrier and leap over the barbed wire on top. But Fechter paused for a few fatal seconds. Long enough for the Grenzpolizei (border police) to raise their weapons and fire. Shot in the back by crossfire, Fechter fell back onto the death strip only 300 yards from Checkpoint Charlie, the U.S. command post at the busy Friedrichstrasse border crossing.

There he lay, moaning "Hilfe, Hilfe," while a growing throng of horrified West Berliners stood gaping on the other side of the barrier. As the minutes ticked past, photographers, cops, even a couple of U.S. military policemen, edged gingerly up to the Wall's western side to have a look at the hideous sight.

One conscience-stricken U.S. second lieutenant could stand it no longer, picked up the "hot line" telephone to Major General Albert Watson II, the U.S. commandant in West Berlin. Back came the order: "Lieutenant, you have your orders. Stand fast. Do nothing."

Not knowing the reason for the Americans' inaction, an agonized crowd swirled around the command post crying: "For God's sake, go get him." When a German reporter asked why the American troops did not rescue Fechter, one G.I. replied, "This is not our problem."

Fifty-five minutes after he had fallen to the ground, Peter Fechter's lifeless body was carted away by Communist cops. He was the 50th East German known to have been killed while attempting to breach the Wall.

So what would YOU have told the US forces to do? Would YOU order them across the Berlin Wall to pick up Fecther? If they had done so, what would be the probable reaction of the East German Border Guards?

Fechter was an East German, shot by East Germans, dying on East German soil.

Had US troops gone to get him, you'd be here now whining that we "invaded the GDR" or other nonsense.

You're so desperate, it's comical.

Friedrich and Shreiber - typical russian last names :-)

[/b]

Typical East German Border Guards guarding an artificial border created by the Soviets. Note how these two were not prosecuted until after reunification and the vestiges of a totalitarian system that murders its own citizens for trying to leave "paradise" had been swept away.

>>Once again, you show your total ignorance.

You place them at reservation by force first time - and still keep them there! "Sovereign" is a good thing...

As Holden pointed out, the Native Americans are not "kept" there. They, unlike your citizens, were always free to go where they wanted to go without needing governmental permission or ID cards.

[mora]

Originally posted by Panzzer
LOL... So where are you going to move to after you graduate as an engineer?

edit: added "as an engineer" not to diminish Mora's accomplishment.

Actually it was more of a reference to USSR than a "threat". Dunno yet where I'll end up.

[Simaril]

Originally posted by Despair
Well, Comarades, they cannot understand what is a good free health care, education, accomodations etc. cause they had never experienced any of it. Its like trying to explaim Mozart to deaf. I was educated in Soviet Union and i can speak 4 foreign languages, have a degree in economic sciences that alows me to choose my working time and schedule.

It's not the free health care that's the issue, its the relative success of the systems. People who lived in the system voted with their feet to get out as fast as possible. If the communist system worked so well, why did it collapse when the Wall came down and people were free to leave?

SImple question.




(Straight answer?........ Doubtful)

[Simaril]

Originally posted by Boroda


95% of Americans probably will prefer Soviet system to what they have now. No kidding.
 

Thsi is great stuff. You really have absolutely no idea what life is like here, do you........