Question to Finns

[Toad]

Originally posted by Raven_2

BTW, did you know than there were more than 145.000 deaths in Okinava in 1945? What the reason?  

Here again you attempt to defend the murder of the Poles by pointing a finger and yelling "you did it too".

Your problem is that the US DID NOT execute tens of thousands of Japanes POWs with their hands tied behind their backs.

Some civilians WERE killed during the US attack on Okinawa, just like civilians were killed during attacks in every civilian populated area, in every theater of war, by every military force involved in the war.

However, I challenge you to show any evidence that masses of civilians were rounded up and EXECUTED by US troops on Okinawa. It didn't happen and you know it didn't happen.

Rape by US troops? Yes, it happened. However, it NEVER happened on the scale of the Red Army's rape of Berlin (90,000+ reported rapes[/] and an unknown number of unreported rapes) and it NEVER happened because the US officer corps turned a blind eye to the crime or encouraged their troops to do so.

Face it... the Soviets have a lot of incredibly barbaric crimes to answer for........ and all you guys can do is deny, deny, deny.

Makes you look REALLY bad.

[Nekto]

Toad

>Look, there was an investigation at the time the graves were discovered. Photographs were taken, forensic evidence was studied.

Nazi were honest and unprejudiced people. I know.

>The Germans even allowed POWs from the Allied countries to investigate the scene.  

POWs are forensic experts. Sure.

>You many want to investigate the reports of Capt. Stanley Gilder (British Army), Lt.-Col. Frank Stevenson (South African Army), Lt.-Col. John H. Van Vliet (US Army), Capt. Donald B. Stewart (US Army), if you can find them.

They wre just soldiers not forensic medicine specialists. What could they say?

>Several reputable people/angencies investigated the freshly-opened graves at Katyn.

Yeah, at Nazi's gunpoint.

>Then there there's the evidence of the diaries and letters. They all end the same time, a time when the prisoners were in Soviet custody.

The Burdenko commission had found documents dated 1941.

>Then there is the admission by Yeltsin, with some accompanying documents, that the NKVD killed those Poles.

Forgering. Why not?

>This was confirmed by Gorbachev and Putin.

As a matter of fact Gorbachev confirmed  nothing. I read this TASS message. And to tell the truth I don't care what Gorby&Putin are saying. It proves nothing.

>Now the latest round of admission from the Chief Military Prosecutor.

The Russian corrupt court system could blame everyone our authority wants.

>Only those willing to lie to themselves can deny the evidence. The withholding of 2/3 of the Katyn documents by the Russians right now points to culpability. What can be secret about the Poles deaths 65 years later?

No. On the contrary it points to culpability of current  government blamed Soviets with forgery.

[Toad]

Exactly.

Deny, deny, deny.

The only way to make yourself look even more foolish would be to tell us all that the sun rises in the West.

[bikekil]

Originally posted by Nekto
Ask Germany for example. There are two accused guys - Germany and USSR, you know. Above I gave you a hint why Russian gvt don't want to show the documents but you are saying it's not your business. Why do you ask then?

Well... a chenge of the political system you say? From KAtyn point of view nothing changes you know? Soviets don't wanted to admit anything... so as Russia now.

As i said, noone asks for a taking responsibility just for the truth. Does truth change with the political system so i should be interested in a system change?

Oh.. .the Germans... hmm... asking Marsians could also help.. meybe they seen something from the spaceship and now could help?

Geee, we are asking for what is in Russian archives that used to be Sovied archived once... Pass your archives to Azerbejgan or anyone else so we ask them about the truth, but till then we have to ask Russia.

[Toad]

Originally posted by bikekil

Oh.. .the Germans... hmm... asking Marsians could also help.. meybe they seen something from the spaceship and now could help?

 

Actually, unbeknownst to them, the Germans DID accidentally help.

You may not have seen this bikekil:




God's Eye: Aerial Photography and the Katyn Forest Massacre

From 1941 to 1944, the Luftwaffe flew 17 sorties in the Smolensk area, some of which included the Katyn Forest. There, recorded on film, were “snapshots” of the area taken before, during, and after the German occupation.

In one series of photographs taken in April 1944, discovered by Poirer and reexamined by Maliszewski, the German cameras caught the Soviets removing bodies from mass graves and bulldozing the ground to cover up evidence of the crime.

Maliszewski later found more burial sites using US intelligence satellite imagery and up-to-date maps based on satellite imagery that were provided through the good offices of Dr. Zbigniew Brzezinski, former national security adviser to President Carter, who was sympathetic to the project.

The book is God’s Eye: Aerial Photography and the Katyn Forest Massacre by by Frank Fox, Professor of History.

There's another one you might want to track down too. A KGB report dated 3 March 1959 stated that “21,857 Polish officers, gendarmes, police, settlers, and others” had been killed on official orders in 1940. This is in a book by Dimitri Volkogonov, Autopsy for Empire: The Seven Leaders Who Built the Soviet Regime.

The evidence is plain, so the best defense they can mount is "Deny, deny, deny".

[Raven_2]

to Toad

>>Here again you attempt to defend the murder of the Poles by pointing a finger and yelling "you did it too".

Defend? This is unproved for now. Point me to the official court decision and then I accept this. Until that - it`s just guesses.

>>Your problem is that the US DID NOT execute tens of thousands of Japanes POWs with their hands tied behind their backs.

And nazi also. They just burn people. And you just shot them. And in Hirosima you just melt them. 350.000 of civilians it`s not a number for you. Well, it`s not a crime to kill japan civilian for no reasons, yes? It`s an everyday work of US troops. And then more killings - then better.

>>Some civilians WERE killed during the US attack on Okinawa, just like civilians were killed during attacks in every civilian populated area, in every theater of war, by every military force involved in the war.

Sure, but US army is only army that kill 350000/20000 ~ 17 japan civilians per japan soldier in Hirosima/Nagasaki and 107.000/100.000 ~ 1 civilian per soldier at Okinava.


This is the normal for you? But why you hunt for Been-Laden then? Just drop nuclear bombs on all arabic countries and then say "There were military targets/terrorists and we at war with terrorism".

>>90,000+ reported rapes

Reported to whom?

[Nekto]

Originally posted by Toad
The only way to make yourself look even more foolish would be to tell us all that the sun rises in the West.

When someone become personal that means man has no any argument and therefore losts a dispute.

[Toad]

Again, you try to compare bombing a city during wartime to the executions of POWs with hands tied behind their backs.

There IS no comparison, no matter how many people died in the bombing. I can see where you have to pretend otherwise, but you must know the difference.

>>90,000+ reported rapes

Reported to whom?

Based on contemporary hospital reports and on surging abortion rates in the following months, it is estimated that up to two million German women were raped during the last six months of World War Two, around 100,000 of them in Berlin.

One woman remembered hiding in the loft of her apartment block, ready to jump out of the window if she was detected, whilst her best friend was being gang raped by Soviet soldiers in the apartment below.

Contemporary hospital records. But you will deny, deny, deny, right?

[Toad]

Originally posted by Nekto
When someone become personal that means man has no any argument and therefore losts a dispute.

Sure isn't personal with me. Just pointing out how preposterous the claims of "no proof" are.

The "sun rising in the West" is the only thing I can find that equally defies evidence.

Denial is your problem, not mine.

[Raven_2]

to Toad

>>There IS no comparison, no matter how many people died in the bombing.

So, 17/1 ratio is normal for you. You know, all of the *civilized* countries try to reduce civilian dethrate in war. And only US was tried to increase it by bombarding peacefull cities.

So, if Soviet troops would killed 170.000.000 of german civilians in addition to 10.000.000 soldiers - you wouldn`t blame they for it, yes?

Based on contemporary hospital reports and on surging abortion rates in the following months, it is estimated that up to two million German women were raped during the last six months of World War Two, around 100,000 of them in Berlin.

And where you found word "Soviet" here, Toad? According to this fragment, soviet troops raped only one woman.

[Nekto]

Originally posted by Toad
Denial is your problem, not mine.

So what about Burdenko commission? In the graves on bodies of Polish officers they had found letters and other papers under date of 1941.  This alone disproves the version of Soviet guiltiness and clearly points at Germany.

Maybe you deny this fact? So in this case I can say that denial is your problem, not mine.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Raven_2
to Toad
 And only US was tried to increase it by bombarding peacefull cities.

[/b]

LOL. Cities were bombing targets for every air force in the war. "Peaceful cities".... you're too funny.

So, if Soviet troops would killed 170.000.000 of german civilians in addition to 10.000.000 soldiers - you wouldn`t blame they for it, yes?

If the civilians were killed in the legitimate prosecution of unrestricted warfare, no.. of course not. People die in war, even civilians.

And where you found word "Soviet" here, Toad? According to this fragment, soviet troops raped only one woman.

You think maybe it was little green men from Mars?

Here, educate yourself. You can just put "Red Army rape Berlin" in Google.

Here's one for you from that lying BBC:


Russians in Berlin

[qutoe]Though the first wave of Soviet troops was generally considered to be disciplined, it was the second that indulged in orgies of rape and violence, fuelled by large stocks of alcohol found in the city.
[/quote]

Or it could have been Martians... oh.. wait... it was US troops DRESSED AS THE RED ARMY!!!

Yah, that's IT!

Deny, deny, deny. You'll never be free until you can face the truth.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Nekto
So what about Burdenko commission?  

The evidence supplied by Yetlsin, Gorbachev and Putin, as well as the graves in Smolensk prove the Burdenko commission is a coverup.

At a Kremlin ceremony on 13 October 1990, Gorbachev handed Jaruzelski a folder of documents that left no doubt about Soviet guilt.

In October 1992, Russian President Boris Yeltsin presented a copy of the order along with 41 other documents to the new Polish president, former Solidarity leader Lech Walesa.

Your country refuses to release 2/3 of the records it has on Katyn. If the Burdenko commission wasn't a cover up, why refuse to release the records?

Deny, deny, deny... while your leaders and honest countrymen admit.

[Nekto]

Toad
It's just funny. Seems you even do not understand what a foolish situation you desribe:

1. Leaders (Yetlsin, Gorbachev and Putin) admited and 'supplied the evidence'.
2. At the same time they 'refuse to release 2/3 of the records it has on Katyn.'

And then you ask 'If the Burdenko commission wasn't a cover up, why refuse to release the records? '



I wonder if westerners have a logic at all. Don't you see a contradiction???

[straffo]

Originally posted by Nekto
Toad
It's just funny. Seems you even do not understand what a foolish situation you desribe:

1. Leaders (Yetlsin, Gorbachev and Putin) admited and 'supplied the evidence'.
2. At the same time they 'refuse to release 2/3 of the records it has on Katyn.'

And then you ask 'If the Burdenko commission wasn't a cover up, why refuse to release the records? '



I wonder if westerners have a logic at all. Don't you see a contradiction???

I can follow your logic  : russians are 1/3 guilty.