Question to Finns

[Raven_2]

to bikekil

>>as my grandpa did and i'm very proud of him

Did your grandpa occupy CZ with nazi in 1938? Cowardly, without declaring a war? Do you proud of him for this too? Sure, he just following orders, I suppose. CZ was USSR ally. And you attack it.

[bikekil]

As far as i know, my Grandpa never been in CZ in his life, but i'm sure that if he got ther order to go there - he would
It's the same like with Polish, american, British or any else troops in Iraq now - I could surely call those guys a heroes (except those who are murdering, raping or whatever... great minority as i believe).

Somkeone made the decision and Officers or Privates, whatever, are following his orders - something to be proud if imo

Still we could discuss were the decisions right or wrong, but if troops are diong something they are meant to, they shoul dbe proud. Russian troops in Czeczenia - you are proud of them or not? I mean just the troops, not a political or military decisions.

Taking Zaolzie from Czechs was something i'm also ashamed. We claimed the lands ours and we took them - the same way like with Ukraine, Poland appologised for it long time ago and majority of Poles shares the same thoughts about it - it was a shame that we did it. Also note, that we had no camps and no kiling POW's or anyone took place.

Raver, you won't hear from me that taking someone elses land by force is a good thing. I'm not genozaur

But still i'm very proud of my grandpa who defended his country like a slodier should. Nothing that anyone can say about it won't change it... and i'm very surprised that some may disagree... especially Russiand who have his armi in Chechenia and are probably proud of those guys (like they should be imo). What my grandpa did was as least the same heroic as what those guys are doing. He was fighting with the armies that attacked his country..

and btw, who occupied Poland and other countryes after WW2 as you speak about occupation of other countries?

[Toad]

Originally posted by genozaur



Toad, if you are trying to hint at the Korean airliner used by the CIA and the USAF as a spy plane full of civillian hostages, you are dead wrong on that.

LOL!

Deny, deny, deny.

I wasn't referring to the Soviet murder of the civilians on KAL 007.

I was referring to the multiple Soviet murders of US military personnel flying recon aircraft in ICAO International Airspace.

During the Cold War period of 1945-1977, a total of more than forty reconnaissance aircraft were shot down in the European and Pacific areas.

It's true that a few of these had gone off course and entered Soviet airspace.

Instead of escorting them OUT of Soviet airspace like we did with your Bears that strayed into our airspace down the East Coast of the US on their way to Cuba, YOU them down.

Shooting down unarmed transport category aircraft, like C-130's,that strayed into your airspace. And you wonder why you are viewed as barbarians.

[Raven_2]

to Toad

I study on "computer security" course in University. It`s by patronage of FSB. Many of our lecturers are from military. One of them - admiral (on pension), ex-FSB worker. He said, that USA masked they spy planes into civil planes. And crushing in 1978 (maybe I`m forgot the date, South Korea Boeing) wath provocation by USA - plane simply didn`t reply on requests. And no bodies were found by Soviet ships.

[Toad]

You poor deluded fool.

This is perhaps as stupid as the denial of Katyn, but it serves very nicely to explain to you why the rest of the world views you as barbaric.

[Fishu]

Toad,

Gee.. I wonder why some planes were shot down.
Nothing to do with the constant violations of the USSR airspace?-)

It's called stirring for trouble.

The USSR has done the same with Finland all the time.
We just don't have the luxury of shooting down planes, when we get tired of it, without consequences.


I guess they (USA, the USSR/russia & few other countries with not so good neightbour relations) get some kind of kicks for near border flights and little intrusions.
Sometimes the **** hits the fan.

This is the kind of issue that neither russians nor americans can stand out as purely innocent.

[Raven_2]

to Toad

Delude by whom, Toad? By you and your kind? Why you think that *your* words must weight for me more? Again, has any proves? Of course not! Like always...

And, yes, you right. All you can is lie. All I can is deny your lies.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Fishu
Toad,

Gee.. I wonder why some planes were shot down.
Nothing to do with the constant violations of the USSR airspace?-)
 

Well, let's see Fishu. I flew NSA directed RC-135 missions from 1975-1980.

NOT ONCE in that time were we ever directed to violate USSR airspace. In fact, we went to great pains to make sure we did not. We flew 20 miles off the coast, well inside of ICAO International Airspace. Crews that got off course at all were given remedial training.

But what do I know, right? After all, I was only the pilot in command and overall Mission Commander of those missions.

Now, again, contrast this with the US policy. The Russians routinely flew reconnaissance Bear bombers down our East coast to Cuba. They'd rest and return a day or two later. They strayed into our airspace.

Search all the records and find out how many Russian aircraft were shot down off the East Coast of the US.

They weren't shot down...they were escorted out of our airspace using standard ICAO escort signals and procedures.

Murder or escort.......... which is barbaric?

[Toad]

Originally posted by Raven_2
to Toad

Delude by whom, Toad? By you and your kind? Why you think that *your* words must weight for me more? Again, has any proves? Of course not! Like always...

And, yes, you right. All you can is lie. All I can is deny your lies.

I'm actually HAPPY that you try to justify the Soviet shootdown of KAL 007.

It just proves the point even better.

It fits perfectly with your denial of Katyn.

The world knows what the Soviets did, even if you do not.

I think it's important to record the fact that there are still Russians denying these barbarous acts.

You want to know why the world views Russians as barbaric? Because of Russians like you!

[Raven_2]

>>Search all the records and find out how many Russian aircraft were shot down off the East Coast of the US.

Sure, you don`t find any :-) USA still keeps things like that in secrecy.

And agian, Toad. There is no docs/links to sources in your post, only usual "bla-bla-bla you ignorant bastard that deny all of (un)proved Soviet crimes".

And again KAL 007. Check this:
http://www.kimsoft.com/korea/kal-007.htm

I Told the World the Soviets Shot It Down in Cold Blood, But I Was Wrong
By Alvin A. Snyder

<...>

Alvin Snyder is a former director of television for the U.S. Information Agency and author of "Warriors of Disinformation: American Propaganda, Soviet Lies and the Winning of the Cold War" (Arcade Publishing).

But within the last few years, additional taped evidence has become public that makes clear that I was given only selective information-some of the pilots' words and none of the comments of the ground controllers. Those full conversations reveal that the Russians believed the intruder aircraft was an American RC-135 reconnaissance plane, many of which flew routine missions in the area. The tapes, which are compiled in the final report of the International Civil Aviation Organization's investigation of the incident released in 1993 told me what I did not hear.

The tapes, the content of which U.S. government officials were aware of at the time of the shootdown, show that Osipovich could not identify the plane, and that he fired warning cannons and tipped his wings, an international signal to force the plane to l and. All this failed to get the crew's attention. The controller said, "The target is military. As soon as it has violated state borders, destroy it. Arm your weapons . . . . The target has violated the state border. Destroy the target."

Former U.S. officials involved in the coverup, who insist on anonymity, have told me that monitoring data was intentionally withheld from our U.N. tape. Beyond the propaganda value, the U.S. did not wish to tip the Soviets to the sophistication of its int elligence along the Soviet border. "Although untrue and unfair," one former State Department official told me, "it intimidated the Russians, and probably helped to prevent future such incidents and saved lives. We gave them a beating."

Flight 007 was a victim of the Cold War, and it proved that war could be very real and could lead to human casualties. Another casualty, always war's first, was the truth. Anything that worked was fair game. The story of Flight 007 will be remembered pret ty much the way we told it in 1983, not the way it really happened. Technology may well spawn disinformation more insidious than any we have yet known. What replaces 1980s-style disinformation in the future may make it seem wholesome by comparison, and th e press must be ever more vigilant.

So, it was just everyday USA antisoviet propoganda, based on fear of socialism - by the words of your own director of television for the U.S. Information Agency.

And, let me guess: you still deny this, yes?

As you can see, lie and witheld of facts are everyday bussines for USA Information Agency. Do you think they lie you only once, with that KAL 007? Or maybe there were another lies? And maybe most of anti-soviet news were just lies and propaganda, like this one? Toad, your country TV is worldwide know for protecting your government and strict censorship. And that`s why USSR was Evil Empire for you - cause Reigan said so and your TV was show only what you govenrnment want for you to see. Open your eyes, man. USSR wasn`t bad.

[Raven_2]

More on topic "evil Stalin throw innocent peoples into the prisons and USA is full of freedom":

In the United States of America, for example, a country of 252 million inhabitants (in 1996), the richest country in the world, which consumes 60% of the world resources, how many people are in prison? What is the situation in the US, a country not threatened by any war and where there are no deep social changes affecting economic stability?

In a rather small news item appearing in the newspapers of August 1997, the FLT-AP news agency reported that in the US there had never previously been so many people in the prison system as the 5.5 million held in 1996. This represents an increase of 200,000 people since 1995 and means that the number of criminals in the US equals 2.8% of the adult population. These data are available to all those who are part of the North American department of justice. (Bureau of Justice Statistics Home page, http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/ ) . The number of convicts in the US today is 3 million higher than the maximum number ever held in the Soviet Union! In the Soviet Union there was a maximum of 2.4% of the adult population in prison for their crimes – in the US the figure is 2.8%, and rising! According to a press release put out by the US department of justice on 18 January 1998, the number of convicts in the US in 1997 rose by 96,100.

As far as the Soviet labour camps were concerned, it is true that the regime was harsh and difficult for the prisoners, but what is the situation today in the prisons of the US, which are rife with violence, drugs, prostitution, sexual slavery (290,000 rapes a year in US prisons). Nobody feels safe in US prisons! And this today, and in a society richer than ever before!

>>The number of convicts in the US today is 3 million higher than the maximum number ever held in the Soviet Union!

Should we now call USA a totalitarian country?

[Boroda]

I remember Osipovich interview on Central TV on the day he shot that Boeing... He was all trembling. Pale face, and he was wearing a G-suit... Later he said he had to drink a full glass (200ml) of vodka before he could speak to the TV...

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Raven_2: Should we now call USA a totalitarian country?

No we shouldn't. I think that it's up to a country's population to make such definitions. Sorry. Old Soviet habbit - don't interfere, people there know better. Quite different from their propaganda masters, isn't it?...

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Nekto
Raven_2
Я, вроде, сказал про одного...
За что -  не знаю. У меня нет доступа к материалам следствия.

Та же фигня. По крайней мере - про прадеда.

Интересно что его дочь, моя бабушка, ЧСВН, вышла замуж за деда, который служил в артиллерийском училище в Москве, и был одним из первых офицеров, которые летом 41го получили "Катюши" БМ-13. Вот такой, блядь, тоталитаризм. В Штатах хуй кого допустят к технике такого уровня секретности если у него в семье есть неблагонадёжные.

Про деда по отцу всё известно, его реаблитировали в 34м. Он был военспец, забрали его в чине комбрига.

Originally posted by Nekto
Raven I don't think it's correct to write in Russian here. It's an english-language forum yet.

Our international friends widely use Babelfish and other robotranslators. If I want to post something for Russians only - I use modern argot and make "padonki"-style intentional mistakes. And using translit makes your posts absloutely unreadable too.

Please, leave moderation to moderator

[Nekto]

Originally posted by Boroda
В Штатах хуй кого допустят к технике такого уровня секретности если у него в семье есть неблагонадёжные.

Точно. Бабушка то (у которой брата расстреляли) была женой относительно большой шишки Дед работал генштабе на весьма высоких должностях.

Ни хрена они не знают про наш 37 год. У историка Ю.Жукова хорошая книжка на эту тему вышла. Я примерно и представлял себе нечто подобное.

Originally posted by Boroda
Please, leave moderation to moderator

You are right.