Author Topic: Question to Finns (Read 29655 times)

Raven_2 · « **Reply #555 on:** March 22, 2005, 08:18:40 AM »

to Fishu

Bla-bla-bla. I ask for arguments and you say to me this "USSR is a bad thing, cause it`s bad" again.

BTW, there were no "wastedump" on our territories 15 years ago. And standarts of living in USSR were mu-u-uch higher for many russians without this ****** "open borders" and "economic freedom".

to Angus

>>That will never excuse the coldblooded systematic mass murders at Katyn.

.. that still unprooved by anyone except Gebbels. You trust to reihminister of Nazi propaganda? There. Is. No. Court. Decission. Read it twice, please. Until then all of your (and my) saying are just guesses.

Show me an official document by our (or someone else) court - and then I agree with your saying.

to lazs2

>>raven, you are comparing stalins shooting and working to death of 20 million people (some whos's only crime was maybe they were the wrong political party at one time) to..... to... The U.S. having "whites only" signs on drinking fountains in the south?

8.500.000 deaths. By *western* sources. They don`t love USSR much, you know. Maximum 1/2 of them were shot. Others dies in prisons. Most of them were *criminals*. Marauders and so on. Sure, there were "political" repressions. Less then one percent.

>>they ones we had went home?

There were 4.000.000 of PoWs in USSR after WWII. > 3.000.000 were returned, others died. From famine and desises. Again, this is official *western* stats.

>>a war in which most japs would not surrender and fought to the last man...

8-D LOL Man, you hate your history. Soviet troops captured more than half of Kvantum army here, at Far East. They don`t commit mass suicide. They don`t "fought for the last man". They surrender when they were surrounded.

U.S. troops just kill most of surrending japans. Ask japans, if you don`t trust me.

To your knowledge, in New-York during war with Japan ear of japan soldier cost 10$, skull - 100$.

Boroda · « **Reply #556 on:** March 22, 2005, 08:20:07 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
Ok... so how many political enemies has yeltsin executed so far?

lazs

I guess on October, 3, 1993, at the Presnya stadium in the backyard of former Supreme Counsil building ("White House") noone counted executions.

Really hard to imagine that less then two months before that mass murder a-la Pinochet I went there to first-league football games...

I also never saw any statistics on the teenagers shot from heavy machineguns at Ostankino on the same night.

Lazs, it happened less then 12 years ago!...

Raven_2 · « **Reply #557 on:** March 22, 2005, 08:25:33 AM »

to mora

>>What happened to many of the officers of the red army and many other people?

LOL. "What happened to many people". Good question. And very precise :-) And what happened to many people in your country, mora? :-)

lazs2 · « **Reply #558 on:** March 22, 2005, 08:49:50 AM »

so how many did yeltsin arrest and execute or work to death in camps? Are you comparing shooting rioters to going to peoples homes and arresting them and no one ever hearing about them again?

And... are you saying that the U.S. could have captured all the japs who died defending worthless rocks in the pacific? Are you saying that the thousand and thousands of jap solidiers killed were shot while..... surrendering? And you know this how? Which book did you find this in? perhaps you are saying that the Americans threw the oki citizens off cliffs and all the film footage is fake? I have seen film footage of surrendered japs and they were so badly wounded or stunned that they weren't even aware.... why not just shoot em if that was the policy?

are you condoning working to death or executing or neglecting to death 1 in every three german POW's?

This is beyond silly.

lazs

mora · « **Reply #559 on:** March 22, 2005, 08:58:33 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Raven_2
to mora

>>What happened to many of the officers of the red army and many other people?

LOL. "What happened to many people". Good question. And very precise :-) And what happened to many people in your country, mora? :-)

Geez... It doesn't seem very precice as you are quoting only half of my post.

So is the Stalins "cleaning" of the red army in the '30s also just another piece of propaganda? How about the disappearings of the finnish commie immigrants along with many others who's loyalty was guestioned?

Boroda · « **Reply #560 on:** March 22, 2005, 09:01:14 AM »

Lazs, my point is that people who kill "rioters" (who, BTW, only supported constitutional order) can easily get support from the West, regardless to any human rights violations, only because they destroy my country and sell it at cheaply.

I don't advocate repressions, my Grandfather spent 2 years in BamLag for accusation of "czarist officers coup", but was rehabilitate, Grand-Grandfather simply got "10 years without right to correspondence" in 1939 for "sabotage" on his railway line... But "1937" have become another common myth, repeated without thinking, again, by some strange coincidence, introduced by Goebbels. Most of Western "facts" about USSR are a direct adoption of nazi propaganda. You only abandoned his antisemitic rhethorics...

lazs2 · « **Reply #561 on:** March 22, 2005, 09:10:40 AM »

maybe that is true but you are admitting that the things I found most abhorent in the "nazi propoganda" are true.

I do not advocate shooting rioters for the most part and if it happens again and a again over decades.... there is a real problem.

Being shot in a riot is a lot different tho than huddling in your home hoping not to be arrested and vanish.

lazs

Boroda · « **Reply #562 on:** March 22, 2005, 09:26:15 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by mora
Geez... It doesn't seem very precice as you are quoting only half of my post.

So is the Stalins "cleaning" of the red army in the '30s also just another piece of propaganda? How about the disappearings of the finnish commie immigrants along with many others who's loyalty was guestioned?

Well, you can look at the "purges" from different angle.

1) Red Army commanders who were purged oftenly were absolutely incompetent Civil War leaders of anarchical partisan squads. Like Marshall Bliuher, who was arrested after showing total inability to command in modern war in lake Hasan conflict. Anyway - I admit that many good officers were "purged" together with that Cold-War relics...

2) "Repressions" were basically spiders fighting in a jar. Old bolshevik monsters were killed, it can be viewed as a punishment for their old crimes. Did you study Trotsky's ideas? I feel horror when I imagine that he could win his struggle with Stalin...

Anyway - it always was a Soviet internal affair. I wonder why noone accuses you guys of "inhuman barbarism" for what you did to Finnish Red Guards.

All this things are really nothing compared to conscious genocide of American Indians. It's brought to attention only in propaganda purposes: to show that Evil Soviets were really evil. Every European nation commited crimes much more horrible in their history.

The ammount of lies about repressions is hard to imagine. Even Solzhenitsyn admitted that his "GULAG archipelago" was a "big mistake" and full of obvious lies.

Raven_2 · « **Reply #563 on:** March 22, 2005, 09:26:50 AM »

to lazs2

I sad to you about western propaganda sources. Now - to the truth. Official numbers from of "political" arrests from Soviet archives (from report to Hrushev, 1 february 1954):

3.777.380 verdicts total (since 1921 to 1954, for 33 years)

642.980 sentenced to death

2.369.220 sentanced to prison (2-25 years of inprisonment)

765.180 sentenced to deportation (Gulag, Sybir)

It`s an official USSR statistics from 1921 up to 1954.

This numbers were for Hrushev eyes. Do you think that Soviet government lied to itself?

Death was changed to inprisonment for (by years):
5.671 in 1935
7.303 in 1936
6.239 in 1937
5.926 in 1938
3.425 in 1939
4.037 in 1940

I don`t find stats for other years.

TOTAL: 32.601

Maximum number of "poltical enemies" killed: 642.980-32.601=610.379 (for 33 years of Stalin rule)

Total number of total people arrested ~ five times more - about 20.000.000 (mentioned above). ~16.000.000 of them - criminals. Most of this number (> 99%) were imprisoned, not shot (like in any other country). Death rate in prisons was ~0.5% per year (excluding war years, when it rise up to ~10% in 40-42, and up to 20% in 43-44).

So, there were less then million people killed during Stalin rule. ~200.000 died in prisons. That is from Soviet government archive. That`s why we don`t think that Stalin was "mindless slayer". Sure, there were a lot (~600.000) of sensless death during 33 years of his rule. But much less thet your propaganda says to you.

Now - little experiment.

There were ~190.000.000 of peoples in USSR in 1954 and of them 2.760.000 jailed. ~1.5 prisoners per 1000 people.

And now compare this with USA (stats from 1999):
1.366.721 in prisons
687.973 in jails

Total: 2.054.754

~275.000.000 people total

Prisoners per 1000 of population = ~0.75

Sure, twice less, but USA is "the most democratic country in the world" and USSR was totalitarian country. And it MUCH less then in China now. As you can see, USSR was not so bad, even during Stalin rule. It was an enemy of your style of life and thats why your govenment lied to you. And to us, starting from 1985 :-(

Boroda · « **Reply #564 on:** March 22, 2005, 09:35:10 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
Being shot in a riot is a lot different tho than huddling in your home hoping not to be arrested and vanish.

Sorry, I can't judge, Americans have definetly more experience in shooting rioters

I only see that after several decades of peace in my country, after so-called "repressions" were excluded from the list of political struggle, some drunk idiot simply shots thousands of people in the middle of Moscow, and seizes the power, changing the Constitution. It was 1993, not 1917 or 1937. The world really did become a better place by that time.

I am really ashamed that at that time I supported Yeltsin. The video from Ostankino killing was a shok for me. Thousands of people simply torn apart by 14.5mm bullets from BTRs... Without warning or anything. Led to Ostankino by provocators and killed with cold blood. I wonder what the people in that BTRs felt... I don't even know what unit they belonged to...

Raven_2 · « **Reply #565 on:** March 22, 2005, 09:40:42 AM »

to mora

You say something like "And how about that guys in 30`s? They came to USSR and never come back. Of course they were shot." Please, be more precise. Names, numbers, places, dates.

Boroda · « **Reply #566 on:** March 22, 2005, 09:42:22 AM »

Sorry, I have to correct myself, I studied Soviet justice at school 20 years ago and my memory failed on this subject.

Death penalty indeed was included into Soviet Penal Codex in Stalin's time. It was abolished in 1947, and then again used since 1950 for some crimes, in 1954 - for premeditated murder.

Sorry, my unintentional mistake.

Raven_2 · « **Reply #567 on:** March 22, 2005, 09:44:19 AM »

to lasz2

>>why not just shoot em if that was the policy?

To make some films about bravery of U.S. troops, I suppose :-) Sure, it was hyperbole. Still, Soviets captured much more japans (in percents) that US. Why? I dunno. Shooting of surenders was just my opinion.

And many japans really hate US. But they don`t like much most of the world, though.

Toad · « **Reply #568 on:** March 22, 2005, 09:46:35 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Boroda

Every European nation commited crimes much more horrible in their history.

I doubt the "MUCH" part but there's no doubt they committed equally barbarous crimes.

The DIFFERENCE is that the OTHER countries ADMIT they did it. The OTHER countries are not in DENIAL.

BIG DIFFERENCE. Sort of indicates which countries may do stuff like that again.

Boroda · « **Reply #569 on:** March 22, 2005, 09:49:55 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
I doubt the "MUCH" part but there's no doubt they committed equally barbarous crimes.

The DIFFERENCE is that the OTHER countries ADMIT they did it. The OTHER countries are not in DENIAL.

BIG DIFFERENCE. Sort of indicates which countries may do stuff like that again.

Someone denies the fact that repressions (purges) took place?

Toad, you are funny. Will they stop paying your military pension if you admit obvious things that don't correspond with Party Line, or whatever it is called in the US now?...