Question to Finns

[Toad]

Originally posted by Raven_2
Toad, still you didn`t answer on my question directly. This words by USA IA director is lie? Soviet propaganda? Or what?

I don't know.

I know the CVR and the FDR don't lie though.

As I said, the worlk knows what happend to KAL 007. The Russian Federation released transcripts of the air defense command and control as well.

There's no doubt it was murder.

[Raven_2]

to Toad

The Members of the International War Crimes Tribunal find the accused Guilty on the basis of the evidence against them: each of the nineteen separate crimes alleged in the Initial Complaint has been established to have been committed beyond a reasonable doubt. The Members find these crimes to have occurred during three main periods in the U.S. intervention in and occupation of Korea.

 

The best-known period is from June 25, 1950, until July 27, 1953, the "Korean War," when over 4.6 million Koreans perished, according to conservative Western estimates, including 3 million civilians in the north and 500,000 civilians in the south. The evidence of U.S. war crimes presented to this Tribunal included eyewitness testimony and documentary accounts of massacres of thousands of civilians in southern Korea by U.S. military forces during the war. Abundant evidence was also presented concerning criminal and even genocidal U.S. conduct in northern Korea, including the systematic leveling of most buildings and dwellings by U.S. artillery and aerial bombardment; widespread atrocities committed by U.S. and R.O.K. forces against civilians and prisoners of war; the deliberate destruction of facilities essential to civilian life and economic production; and the use of illegal weapons and biological and chemical warfare by the U.S. against the people and the environment of northern Korea. Documentary and eyewitness evidence was also presented showing gross and systematic violence committed against women in northern and southern Korea, characterized by mass rapes, sexual assaults and murders.

As you can see, a LOT of US soldiers raped woman - in German, in Japan, in Korea. And, if you read already Osmar White article (read it, please), you can see that there wer *no* mass rapes of German womans in Berlin.

Sure, marauders and rapers can be founded in any army. Marauders and rapers in Soviet army don`t lived long - they were shot momentaly by officers.

And Beevor (thoose guy with 90.000 rapes number) book it`s just another pro-Gebbels antisoviet war, writed to make profit on Cold War anti-USSR movement.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Raven_2

Is there any prove (except this Beevor guy) that all german rapes were did by Soviet troops?

Let's see; the only witnesses would be Soviet soldiers and the raped women. Let me guess.. you don't accept the testimony of the women.

Ask some German posters on this BBS if you don't believe the historians.

[Raven_2]

to Toad

Did you read my post?

The tapes, the content of which U.S. government officials were aware of at the time of the shootdown, show that Osipovich could not identify the plane, and that he fired warning cannons and tipped his wings, an international signal to force the plane to l and.

A murder? When policeman see supected running away, shout "Freeze" to him, shot in the air multiple times and only after that, with no reaction from suspected, killing him - is this a murder? Plane didn`t react on any attempts to communicate with it. It violated USSR territory ~ 15 km deep. And still you call this "murder"?

BTW, no bodies were found.

[Nekto]

1 Beavor is not historian but journalist.
2 There were rape incidents in Berlin but rapists were punished (up to execution).

According to Soviets archives about 4,000 Soviet officeres were severely punished  for any sort of violations against civilians.

Propagandists like Beavor don't tell you about that, eh?

[Raven_2]

Toad, there weren`t hospitals in Berlin except soviet hospitals. So, you think that raped womans report facts of rapes back to soviet troops? Read the Osmar White article to understand how thing goes. It was panic. It was rumours - multipled by fear. And this fear was from Gebbels propaganda about Asian Hordes.

Read this: http://www.argo.net.au/andre/osmarwhiteENFIN.htm

[Raven_2]

Nekto, 12.000 were punished. I can find docs for you. This number not for rapists only, but for rapists and marauders in total.

[Nekto]

Raven find, please.

I think there is no contradiction because I read about officeres  and you probably about oficeres and soldiers
IMHO.

[Toad]

Yeah, murder.

When a fighter shoots down a civilian airliner that he could have forced to land.. that's murder.

The Soviet pilot who destroyed KAL 007, Gennadi Osipovich, recalled thirteen years later in an interview in December 1996: "I saw two rows of windows and knew that this was a Boeing. I knew this was a civilian plane. But for me this meant nothing. It is easy to turn a civilian plane into one for military use."

He couldn't identify it?

He DID identify it as civilian.. shot it down anyway. Barbaric.

[Fishu]

I'm sure he could've seen the passengers, who must've had their faces stuffed against the window to see the fighter.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Fishu
Thank god or something you're not a politician, otherwise we would be already in the third world war.

Why?

Just in the mentioned case - USSR will probably deny the fact of a shot down. Anyway, I doubt anyone could ever think of giving Americans such a beautiful propaganda material.

Such operations are planned with risks counted. Otherwise - we couldn't have so many American spy planes shot down over USSR.

Even the U2 shot down around Sverdlovsk (!!!) wasn't a reason good enough for a war.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Toad
Yeah, murder.

When a fighter shoots down a civilian airliner that he could have forced to land.. that's murder.




He couldn't identify it?

He DID identify it as civilian.. shot it down anyway. Barbaric.

Your quote is from an obvious fake. IIRC Funked posted it several years ago. Please give me a link.

BTW, Michael Brun says that first interview on Soviet TV and first official report stated that it was maj. Kazmin who flew board 805, while Osipovich flew board 804 - a brand new MiG-31.

OTOH, RC-135 is also a "Boeing" and it's a "civilian plane", a 707.

Another question: do your pilots follow orders only when bombing refugees convoys, like in Kosovo? Do you really mean they will refuse to shoot down a "civilian" 707?... Sooo naive...

Here is a link for Russian readers: http://www.airforce.ru/history/kal007/index.htm

And this one is for non-Russian speaking and Toad: http://www.airforce.ru/history/kal007/index.htm

Over more than ten years of investigation, Michel Brun has collected and analyzed evidence which indicates

    * that KAL 007's off course flight was intentional
    * that when the Korean airliner approached Sakhalin Island, so too did a number of U.S. military aircraft some of which had already overflown the Kamchatka Peninsula
    * that when a number of them entered Soviet territorial airspace at Sakhalin, a more than two hour air battle was initiated in which some ten U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy aircraft were shot down with the loss of at least thirty U.S. servicemen
    * that KAL007 itself appears not to have overflown either Kamchatka or Sakhalin but passed through the Straits just the south of that Soviet island, flew south over the Sea of Japan for at least 45 minutes
    * and was then destroyed off Honshu by means and for reasons which remain to be established

a more than two hour air battle was initiated - I understand why that pilot I saw in Sept, 83 on TV was all trembling.

Brun's book must be taken with a grain of salt, especially when he describes how he found "debris" from Korean Boeing, but some of the analysis he made are wery interesting.

Anyway, knowing the usual CIA practice in such provocations - they could easily order US fighters to shoot that 747 over Sea of Japan, or simply blow it up remotely, to cover American losses and get a beautiful propaganda example.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Toad
Yes, the B-52's had cruise missiles as well and some of those probably were targeted at key points in the air defence cammand and control system.

Cruise missiles can be shot down. I am speaking not about a third-world country, I mean USSR. Echeloned anti-aircraft defence. S-200 brigades, as well as command HQs and RTV posts are covered by S-125 (it intercepted 76mm artillery shells at the test ground, cruise missiles my ass! ) and medium-range S-300. And in case you make a break in a PVO network - here come MiG-31s, a squadron of 4 machines, integrated in a digital network with mutual targeting and tracking covers 700km of a frontline.

Originally posted by Toad
However, I seriously doubt we targeted Minutemen against individual SAM sites; it's preposterous. There were much more important targets for those.. I think it is somewhat doubtful they targeted individual SAM sites with Cruise Missiles; there were better targets for those as well.

OK, so me or Nekto could have some more time to live

Individual SAM position!? S-200 is a brigade, with targeting, technical and three fire divisions. It's missiles cover a circle 250km in radius, 40km in altitude.

You can't bite a hedgehog in his bellybutton

[mora]

Over more than ten years of investigation, Michel Brun has collected and analyzed evidence which indicates

Michel Brun, now there's a source... He's just one out of many KAL007 conspiracy theorists out there. Not any more or less credible than this one.

[Boroda]

Raven, Toad switched into his favourite one-way communication "radio" mode, as he usually does when denying obvious things contradicts even with his version of common sence...

Originally posted by Raven_2
A murder? When policeman see supected running away, shout "Freeze" to him, shot in the air multiple times and only after that, with no reaction from suspected, killing him - is this a murder? Plane didn`t react on any attempts to communicate with it.

US fighter pilots in such circumstances usually keep on trying to persuade invader to answer. They use flashlights and Morse code, signal smokes and carrier pigeons.

Originally posted by Raven_2
It violated USSR territory ~ 15 km deep. And still you call this "murder"?

15 km!? Damn, that poor Korean (if they were Koreans) crossed Kamchatka and flew across Sakhalin!

Originally posted by Raven_2
BTW, no bodies were found.

Only brand-new unworn clothes and footwear right from the shops. Passengers were "eaten by crabs", but before that they undressed, fed crabs with their suitcases and ordered a delivery from Wall Mart.