F8f

[NUKE]

Bearcat would be cool, but if it didn't see combat I'd say it's out.

Instead, we need the  B-29

About 3000 or so were made during the war and it did see combat.

[DamnedRen]

Think ya missed the point. Its a WW2 ERA plane.
Make sense to ya now?

Ren

[NUKE]

Originally posted by DamnedRen
Think ya missed the point. Its a WW2 ERA plane.
Make sense to ya now?

Ren

It just had zero impact on WWII, because the war ended before it could be used.

[DamnedRen]

Its still the era the plane was built in. It's still a warbird. And.......this is a game. Not World War II. Show me another World War where high performance prop job airplanes that shoot at you were heavily employeed and you might see yet another online sim.  Seeing as these are the era planes that shot people it stands to reason we see those planes in AH2.

Back to square one. The plane's are from that era. If someone models it I had a chance try it out because I sure do like flying, I'm here to tell you I'd jump in one. That's like saying if they build a P80 and stick in the arena no one will fly it? Come on! Wel, the tank drivers might not

If you don't ever want fly something like that then don't. But don't expect everyone else to feel the same way about a new plane in the arena.

Ren
________________
The Damned

[Kweassa]

Unfortunately for you, the AH mission statement by HTC starts;

Aces High takes the art and science of vintage WWII air combat and sets it in an online high intensity environment where hundreds of players can battle it out with and against each other.

 Sure, AH isn't simulating WW2 on a 1:1 scale. But there's still some standard on what kind of battles are fought by what kind of planes. Go outside of those standards and the game easily turns into a gigantic "What-if", "SWOTL" game.

 He162s, Ta183s, Bf109Zs, Go229s, J7W Shindens, Do335s.. etc etc.. The F8F belongs in the same category as these "what-if" planes.

 It sucked when Oleg and co. wasted their resources on making loads of 'what-if' planes in IL2/FB/AEP, which nowadays nobody allows in their servers because it ruins the whole WW2-era aura from the game. I don't want to see something like that in AH.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Kweassa
He162s, Ta183s, Bf109Zs, Go229s, J7W Shindens, Do335s.. etc etc.. The F8F belongs in the same category as these "what-if" planes.

Let's understand some facts, ok?

On December 31, 1944, the Navy accepted delivery of the the first F8F-1. By August 1 of 1945, the aircraft was in squadron service aboard US fleet carriers, having been carrier qualified. This was not a "what if" fighter. Likewise, the F7F-2N was in squadron service on Okinawa when the war ended. That fighter is not a "what if" either. Along this line, the P-51H was also in service and was actually flying combat patrols with P-51Ds when Japan surrendered. Gee, that's not a "what if" either!

It's one thing to be flying prototypes, it's another altogether when the aircraft is in active squadron service.

You can make a strong argument against including the F8F, F7F and P-51H without resorting to hyperbole. Simply establishing their rarity is probably sufficient.

My regards,

Widewing

[Shuckins]

It takes a lot of time and effort for HTC to develop a flight model for a new aircraft.  In addition, they are busy developing scenarios and maps and handling a hundred other projects.

If they attempted to give every jack-leg, virtual pilot his heart's desire of exotic aircraft they would blow their brains out in frustration.

I would like to keep the MA as realistic as possible.  In the future, after their immediate goals are met, I would like to see HTC develop a special arena for the F8F, F6F-6, and other aircraft that "almost" made it into WW II.

Besides, it's already hard enough to fly early-war birds in an arena that is already choked with dweebs who will only fly late-war aircraft.  We don't really need any more.

[Kweassa]

It's one thing to be flying prototypes, it's another altogether when the aircraft is in active squadron service.

 Says who?

 Considering the possibility that if the war lasted maybe about 6 more months that the 'what if/secret weapons' might have been flying around with the 'serviced approved' F8Fs, the F8F is as much a silly choice for a WW2-based aircombat game as putting in the 'secret weapons' in the game.

 Especially when desparation drives some airforces to put whatever kind of aircraft available up in the air. The Bf109Z for instance, was just about to enter production before the war ended. The Ta183s or Gothas might have been a longshot, but the cheapo-jet He162 also made it through initial testings.  

 There's a good reason why seeing combat as a part of organized, official fighter strength matters so much in these kind of things. In that perspective, the F8F is as much a 'what-if' as any other.

[Saintaw]

Kweassa, c'mon man... you fly in the MA, it has stoped being WWII, and started being "quake with old planes" a long time ago. I say put it in, perk it, and bathe in the whines!

[Pongo]

So like all debates about the Bearcat we end up at the same point.
Its about what people want from the game. Those that want a game where the 109g2 is signifigant want no part of a game with the Bearcat in it. Really thats all it is about.
The guys that flew the bearcat onto carriers in 1945 are suddenly not ww2 pilots because their country was 4 time zones removed from the action. The guys that flew 400 patrols over the canal zone where not ww2 pilots, the guys that flew Mad boom Calalina sortis for 6 months at 100 ft above the staits of gibralter were not combat pilots because a sub never showed up.

Then their are guys that are interested in the techology and challenges of ww2 aircraft. They feel that the Ta152, Tempest, La7,Bearcat, Me262 and B29 are the pinicle of that era and they want to learn about them.

They love the P40E and if the game was  based in 1947 or 1952 they would like the P40E to be in the game cause they would like to experiance it even against  yak 9s and Mig 15s.

I would willingly make the Bearcat unavailable to those that fear it if that would get thier blessing to allow pyro to proceed with including this most uber of american low level iron in the game.

BTW, Dean wimped out on the F7F and F8F in A100K.
He ran out of pages.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Says who?
 

Says me, and anyone else willing to think about it.

This is common sense. F7Fs, F8Fs and P-51Hs were in COMBAT UNITS DEPLOYED IN COMBAT ZONES at the time of the Japanese surrender. These were fully operational aircraft in fully operational units. These were not planes rushed into testing out of desperation, they were fully sorted, combat ready aircraft that had been ordered almost two years before the war ended. The XF7F-1 was flying in December of 1943 and the first deliveries began 11 months before the war ended. In August of 1944, the XF8F-1 was flying, with deliveries beginning in December. First deliveries of the P-51H were in February of 1945, first production flight was February 3, 1945. There were 370 P-51Hs in service by VJ day.

Stop being obtuse. You seem to have the mindset of "don't confuse me with facts, my mind's made up."

These aircraft made no impression on the war's outcome, and on that basis I would say they do not belong in the plane set. That's a valid argument. Saying they were "what if" aircraft on par with the pie-in-the-sky Ta 183 is rediculous in my opinion.

My regards,

Widewing

[Guppy35]

Way too many planes not modeled that did participate in the conflict to do before considering those who coulda shoulda woulda in my opinion.

P39s, lighweight P40Ns, maybe the Merlin P40Fs and Ls that saw action with those MTO USAAF P40 groups.  What about B25s and A26s.  Allison engined Mustangs for the MTO, RAF in the ETO and CBI fans.

All kinds of Spit variants.  You want a 4 cannon Spit, then get the Spit 21.  It got into action before the war was over.  I'm kinda partial to the Spit XII for the low alt work. They certainly saw combat.  Might want to get the Meteor in the game as the Allied jet and see how it matches up to the 262.

Might as well get the Beaufighter, Whirlwind, Me210/410, He219 etc in.  Lots of German bombers, Italian stuff, Russian stuff, Japanese stuff that saw combat that would add to the fun, before those that didn't quite make it.

I'm sure folks can name a lot more.

Dan

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by Widewing
Says me, and anyone else willing to think about it.

This is common sense. F7Fs, F8Fs and P-51Hs were in COMBAT UNITS DEPLOYED IN COMBAT ZONES at the time of the Japanese surrender. These were fully operational aircraft in fully operational units. These were not planes rushed into testing out of desperation, they were fully sorted, combat ready aircraft that had been ordered almost two years before the war ended. The XF7F-1 was flying in December of 1943 and the first deliveries began 11 months before the war ended. In August of 1944, the XF8F-1 was flying, with deliveries beginning in December. First deliveries of the P-51H were in February of 1945, first production flight was February 3, 1945. There were 370 P-51Hs in service by VJ day.

Stop being obtuse. You seem to have the mindset of "don't confuse me with facts, my mind's made up."

These aircraft made no impression on the war's outcome, and on that basis I would say they do not belong in the plane set. That's a valid argument. Saying they were "what if" aircraft on par with the pie-in-the-sky Ta 183 is rediculous in my opinion.

My regards,

Widewing

Yep.

Both sides make some inapropriate arguments comparing these planes to either late war high perfomance planes that saw combat or to what if's or other paper projects, both comparsions are inapropriate. These planes were "in-betweens" that were around in some numbers but failed to take part in the war because of timing and so it's no surprise that they often come up in these threads and with the same colntroversy.

Yet to me, it's quite simple, no combat, no effect on the war in any way whatsover, not in AH.  Maybe after we get the 500 or so missing ww2 combat planes they might be considered, but anything before that would be awaste of resorces.

[TexMurphy]

Seriouly.

While I do think the F8F *could* be added to AH I dont think it *should* be anytime soon.

Why?

Because we seriously need other aircrafts.

We do have the main bulk of the later US and LW fighters (and US bombers) but we lack a crapload of the rest. For example there are huuuuge gaps in the Japanese, Russian and Italian (lower prio then the previous 2) arsenals.

I do understand that we have alot of americans playing this game and hence alot of "american plane fans" but that doesnt change the fact that we really need Japanese and Russian planes badly.

When it comes to the american planes Id say what is most needed are the mid war planes like P40N and P39 (partially because that one is "russian"). The P40N was one of the most produced P40s which was one of the most if not the most produced US fither and the most important US fighter to any midwar ToD tour.

Further what we need is Jap and Rus bombers as well as "junker goons".

So imho adding a F8F to AH at this stage is like added a jaccuzi to a house without plumbing. Nice but useless.

Tex

[Morpheus]

Psssst.

Little news flash guys.

We're never going to get this thing. Even I know that.

So why waste your breath stomping your feet and screaming, keep it out?

Its nice to dream, but thats all it is. A pipe dream at best.