Author Topic: Students Killed in school shooting...  (Read 5443 times)

Offline Rolex

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« Reply #135 on: March 23, 2005, 07:47:43 AM »
Intent is important. Accidents vs. homicides is apples vs. oranges.

I don't think your getting good mileage from the premise, Toad. The 2nd ammendment doesn't seem in jeopardy and neither Beet1e, nor you, are going to change positions. Can't we just say that the US is not the UK, and vice versa, and leave it at that?

Offline Momus--

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« Reply #136 on: March 23, 2005, 07:53:56 AM »
I have no strong views either way on gun control in the US context,  but IMO you'd have to be on crack to genuinely believe that automotive accidents or self-inflicted death to smoking or alchoholism are in any way comparable to deliberate homicides. It's pure sophistry.

Quote
Originally posted by Rolex
I don't think your getting good mileage from the premise, Toad. The 2nd ammendment doesn't seem in jeopardy and neither Beet1e, nor you, are going to change positions. Can't we just say that the US is not the UK, and vice versa, and leave it at that?


That argument has been made previously but unfortunately certain posters keep coming back to the issue like a dog returning to its vomit. (Hi Lazs, Beet :p)

Offline Skydancer

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« Reply #137 on: March 23, 2005, 07:58:48 AM »
Momus you speak the truth.

As far as I'm concerned subject ended.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #138 on: March 23, 2005, 08:31:30 AM »
skydancer... your ignorance and prejudice of firearms is making it impossible for you to think clearly.

now... lets see what the frightened little socialists say..  They say that if you simply removed firearms then all the firearms deaths would go away.  Really?   are they saying that the people in the U.S. that comit suicides with firearms would simply say "no gun handy... forget the suicde" ?  That seems odd since we are like number 31 for countries that commit suicide way below some UK and ice bear countries... perhaps we are a less suicidal country?

next... they say that all the homicides commited by guns would cease... Really?  those angry, nutty and greedy people would just say "no gun... drat!  foiled again!" ?  they use the UK's low rate of homicide as proof even tho... even in the early 20'th century when guns were fairly common in england they had a lower rate than us and... their murder rate has not really gon down because of any gun laws... is it possible they are a more watered down, less murderous and passionate people with less diversity?

Then... they say...  Firearms have no use at all but we will let you have single shots for hunting.  Really?  no use?   The founding fathers never mentioned hunting... I don't hunt.  If we don't hunt then they must be "useless"   really?   well the FBI stats show that between 1.5-3 million crimes a year are prevented by firearms... What would we substitute?   motorcycles?  hiking gear?  cricket paddles?  

skydancer is fond of quoting 1984  veryu apt in this case... he says that takling away your gun rights is "freedom"  freedom is slavery in newspeak.  

beetle himself points out that the worst citries in the U.S. are gun banninig cities not in tune with the rest of the nation.

and... as has been pointed out... school shootings don't happen in israel where teachers are armed... mad bombers happen.  

so far as comparing countries... I would take one of our rural mostly white states with concealled carry and compare it's homicide rate with NZ say  certainly I would add suicides to the homicide rate.

but most of all... you euro ******* don't know squat about guns because you don't have any freedom to.... we know all about guns because we have the choice.

I may never "need" a firearm again... I have in the past.   I have never "needed" a seatbelt and I doubt that I ever will but I reserve the right to own either one.

I wonder what side of the arguement zulu skydancer will be on when they ban motorcycles?  He won't even have a point for their being protected by his worthless constitution or by any useful purpose... but... what is the problem?  you can still own one if it is used only at government sanctioned races for sporting purposes only.

lazs

Offline Toad

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« Reply #139 on: March 23, 2005, 08:36:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skydancer
Be real what personal inconvenience is it not to shoot a handgun? This is not the wild west.

 


You be real. What personal inconvenience is it not to ride/own a motorcycle? Cars are safer, just as efficient for the most part and carry more people, making them more efficient.

You, and the people in this thread like you, are all about telling the other guy what is good for him.


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Matthew 7:3-5  

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?  You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #140 on: March 23, 2005, 08:36:41 AM »
It's all well and good for you anti-gun people to bring up how firearms are misused by criminals and idiots in violation of the many laws on the books.  The point is taken.

But laws are only good if they are respected by the general public AND the riff-raff of a society.  MY point in this debate has always been that the law-abiding citizen who owns firearms are not the problem.  Which of the two groups just mentioned has total contempt for the law and makes no effort to comply with it?  Yep...you got it...the criminal class of gang-banger punks which is responsible for at least 60% of the reported cases of violent assault and homicides in this country.

Stating that cars have a useful purpose and firearms do not is outside the scope of the argument about the country's laws.  The virulently anti-gun crowd is advocating taking firearms away from EVERYONE in the country because of the depradations of the nation's gangs and criminals.  What can that possibly accomplish?  Our criminals are well-funded by drug money and so dominated by a cult of violence that they have no intentions whatsoever of complying with any such law.  If need be, they'll establish a black-market in weapons.  

The laws won't work because that class of fools will not respect them.  To prove my point I will simply state that traffic laws have not worked to reduce highway deaths in this country because YOU the nation's drivers do not respect them.  

When was the last time you advocates of the need for firearms laws obeyed the 55mph speed limit on a two lane highway?   Or even came within 15 mph of it?  Or got your giggles driving while under the influence, however slight, of booze or some other controlled substance?  Have you ever personally known a drunk driver who killed somebody on the road?  Isn't he just as guilty of murder as someone who pulls out a knife or a gun or a baseball bat and deliberately takes a life?  Don't give me all that watermelon about "intent" being the difference between a murderer and a drunk driver who takes a life because as far as I'm concerned the drunk "intended" to drive the car in that condition.

How often have you drag-raced on a public-thoroughfare when you were in high-school?  Isn't that a threat to innocent life?  Wasn't it against the law?  Yet you did it anyway didn't ya?

Have you ever crossed three lanes of traffic at once, at high speed, even tho' it's against the law?  Ever driven down the interstate at speeds in excess of 120mph?  I did it once as a snot-nosed punk college student.  Was it dangerous?  You're dam straight it was!  Stupidest, most irresponsible think I've ever done...and it was done in violation of the law and with total disregard for my own safety and the safety of the two people riding with me and the safety of the other vehicles I met.

On a two-mile stretch of two lane highway that runs between my house and a Crackerbox convenience store there have been 7 traffic fatalities in the last 10 years.  In that same amount of time there have been exactly 0 firearms fatalities or homicides in the neighborhoods fronting that same stretch of highway.  Which of the two problems do you think is of the greatest concern to me?

Total moving-vehicle deaths in the U.S., which has about 200 million drivers, is routinely over 40,000 a year.

Total homicides, both murder and justifiable, in the U.S. are below 20,000 a year, in a nation where more than 100 million citizens own firearms.

Do the math yourself.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2005, 08:56:00 AM by Shuckins »

Offline Toad

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« Reply #141 on: March 23, 2005, 08:40:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Yes, it is a question of “acceptable casualties” compared to personal and public usefulness. If your “lifestyle” needs guns you should seek professional help because you’re a nutcase.


Ah, I see... I'm a nutcase because I need a gun to go pheasant hunting with my Labradors?

And now you will be the judge of "acceptable losses"?

Good.

Please justify allowing alcohol in societ; tell us why alcohol related deaths are acceptable losses. Address the fact that over half the auto deaths in the US are alcohol related and some large portion of firearms deaths are alcohol related as well.

Discuss the vast amount of wife abuse, child abuse and life-threatening disease caused by alcohol.

Or are you ready to ban alcohol to save lives?

Again, you call for a ban based on YOUR preferences in lifestyle.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #142 on: March 23, 2005, 08:47:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex
Can't we just say that the US is not the UK, and vice versa, and leave it at that?


We could. I could. However, some folks seem to always know best what everyone else should do.

Note that I have never said anyone should be forced to have a firearm. Nor do I greet every report of senseless death by castigating the societal preferences of someone else's society.

I want to be left alone to pursue my own lifestyle. I do not try to force it on others, nor do I continually tout it as the "best way" unlike several posters in this thread.

I suggest they tend to their own knitting.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #143 on: March 23, 2005, 08:52:12 AM »
just using the U.S. ...  If only a fraction... a small percent of the crimes that are stopped every year by firearms, if they would have resulted in a death otherwise then firearms are a net gain in life.

adding firearms decreases crime in the U.S.  this seems "useful" to me.  

The founding fathers felt that fireams in the U.S. were a deterent to tyranny and so far... they have not been proven wrong.

motorcyles and swimming kill untold thousand and serve no useful purpose whatsoever yet.... any insane person can participate... there is no waiting period to check out their criminal or background or sanity.   The untold grief caused by these activities that have not useful purpose whatsoever.... the selfish participants justifiy this horror perpetuated on the rest of us byu saying "we do it because we want to"

Wher is our freedom to not see their bloated or mangled corpse or have them cause accidents with their insane power to weight ratio?

On that... there are groups that hate cars and feel that restricting speed and power is a viable way to save lives.

Free people have to draw a line in the sand and say to the wussies.... "past this point you don't cross" so far as rights go... certainly we all have different ideas of what is "useful" and what we like to do but.... to take away others rights out of fear only leaves you vulnerable as the next in line.

I don't know why they can't see that.

lazs

Offline Toad

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« Reply #144 on: March 23, 2005, 08:52:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Momus--
... genuinely believe that automotive accidents or self-inflicted death to smoking or alchoholism are in any way comparable to deliberate homicides.  


It's not the loss of life that's in question, it's the inanimate objects that are the instrument of that loss of life.

Cain killed Abel with a rock. The intent was in Cain, not the rock.

Auto accidents don't usually have homicidal intent. Nonetheless, they cause greater loss of life than firearms by a wide margin.

If the solution to saving lives lost to homicide is to ban the inanimate object used by defective human to kill, then the clear solution to auto deaths is to ban the inanimate object used by a defective (or incompetent) human to kill.

There is no attempt in a firearms ban to alter the intent of the defective human. It's an attempt to remove the (pardon the pun) vehicle used in the loss of life.

It's the same logic.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2005, 12:15:18 AM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #145 on: March 23, 2005, 09:00:20 AM »
Guns are not the problem, people are.

I could list of all of the causes that resulted in this effect, but it wouldn't matter. You have your anti-gun lobby with their prejudices and no amount of explaining what the real problem is will point them in that direction. They believe guns are the problem, they enjoy an alternate reality where guilt and personal responsibility do not exist.
-SW

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #146 on: March 23, 2005, 09:15:13 AM »
wulfie... that is putting it in about as easily understood terms as it can be.   You are dead on.  especially if prejudice also equals fear.

lazs

Offline Curval

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« Reply #147 on: March 23, 2005, 09:40:40 AM »
This thread has turned into a pro-gun circle jerk now.

Jerk away boys.  There is absolutely NOTHING any of you have said that convinces me that my country should make guns legal again.  Quite the opposite actually.

Sorry to interrupt.  Continue the jerk session.
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Offline Momus--

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« Reply #148 on: March 23, 2005, 09:59:06 AM »
Toad, misquoting for a joke can be funny, but if you're going to do it to make a serious point it just makes you look lame, ok?

As previously stated, I don't think the US and UK firearm control models stand up to any kind of comparison, and I've never advocated any kind of UK style legislation for the US. But your comparison between automobiles and guns evades the issue of intent, which as far as I am concerned makes it a specious argument, which is all I object to here really.

Offline Regular

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« Reply #149 on: March 23, 2005, 10:29:27 AM »
Funny thing is that the POS killer aunt is my mother's associate.

I live in Bemidji where those injured kid's went to the hospital.

Took a walk over to it when the doctor's had a press conference.




:eek: