!#$% at the Pump

[Seagoon]

Originally posted by DieAz
BioDiesel has a shelf life, kind of like foods.
as for becoming viscous, it depends on the oil type.

read here  for more info. read the links on that page, to see more of the pro and cons, and anything else you might want to know.

Thanks DieAz, interesting stuff, particularly about making it in the home (although with three little-uns, no diesel vehicles, and no grasp of mathamatics whatsoever,  I won't be following that particular recipe for disaster.)

Ok, I'll bite. If it is so simple, uses a naturally occurring waste product, can be utilized in existing technology and produces so few hazardous by-products, why on earth are we going nuts to create "Hydrogen-Cells" etc? Given that much of our energy generation, and most of our land-based heavy transport is diesel based (including, for instance, locomotives, tractor-trailors, etc.) Why on earth haven't we started refining and using Bio-Diesel everywhere?

[No use of the "H" word, please    ]

- SEAGOON

[Maverick]

Seagoon,

Biodiesel (or used cooking oil) has some merit but is not the wonderful idea it seems at first. It has to be filtered before it goes in the tank. The vehicle won't start with it. It has to start with regular diesel then transfer over after the engine is warmed up. There is some loss of power but it does work.

Getting a fill up is problematic as you have to get the oil from the restaraunt so long distance driving isn't a viable option. Long term effects on the engines and injection systems  are also unknown.

It is a potential fuel but costs more to produce than does regular diesel fuel. It costs in money and resources to produce. If it takes 10 barrels of oil to produce 2 barels of bio diesel it isn't a viable option. IMO. (estimated ratio of petro fuel to bio fuel so don't flame on that)

[g00b]

Bio-diesel and Veggie oil are not the solution for the populace at large. They are great ways to recycle "waste" oil, but producing the stuff specifically for use in cars is not energy efficient.

My housemate has a twin-turbo volvo that runs off pure veggie oil. He and a couple buddies have converted their cars and trucks and it works VERY well. Price of fuel is only the labor to pick it up and filter it.

The problem is that there is only enough "waste" oil in our county for maybe 100 people out of 100,000 to actually do this. So it's not a viable long-term solution.

Even fuel cells and other forms of energy storage still require a "source" to create the energy in the 1st place.

The only long-term solution is to get more efficient. No more SUV's, etc... A fuel-cell powered SUV still takes just as much energy to power as gas one.

We need to get small, light and aerodynamic vehicles. Only problem is they can't co-exist with the Monster Trucks on the roads these days. We need a new infrastructure where small, light, efficient vehicles can operate safely. I've been to communites where certain areas are simply not accessable by foot or bicycle. Personally I think the USA is approaching a criminal negligence in this regard.

The good news is I'm getting involved with Nissan in making some of these:

http://www.extremegravityracing.com

Which would happen to make reasonably cheap, efficient, alternative fuel vehicles. I think the first car company to really embrace the concept is going to make a LOT of money.

So maybe there's hope in the long run.

g00b

[DieAz]

Originally posted by Seagoon
Thanks DieAz, interesting stuff, particularly about making it in the home (although with three little-uns, no diesel vehicles, and no grasp of mathamatics whatsoever,  I won't be following that particular recipe for disaster.)

Ok, I'll bite. If it is so simple, uses a naturally occurring waste product, can be utilized in existing technology and produces so few hazardous by-products, why on earth are we going nuts to create "Hydrogen-Cells" etc? Given that much of our energy generation, and most of our land-based heavy transport is diesel based (including, for instance, locomotives, tractor-trailors, etc.) Why on earth haven't we started refining and using Bio-Diesel everywhere?

[No use of the "H" word, please    ]

- SEAGOON

in one word, the answer is "greed"

ok, I won't use the "H" word, when addressing you.
(you might want to say a prayer for me though.  )

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by g00b
Bio-diesel and Veggie oil are not the solution for the populace at large. They are great ways to recycle "waste" oil, but producing the stuff specifically for use in cars is not energy efficient.

http://www.energybulletin.net/2364.html

[g00b]

Sixpence,

Interesting article, 1st time I've read that anyone thought we could replace the ENTIRE US oil supply with bio-diesel, I'm still a bit leary. Still doesn't address the current polution or general inefficiency issues. Not to mention 90% or more of US vehicles run on gasoline.

g00b

[bustr]

Wasent there a guy named Stanley Myers who ran a dune buggy on water back around 1991? He envented what he called a water fuel cell. Supposedly he died of mysterious circumstances when he got the funding to go full time on his invention. I think he claimed 30 mpg on average.

[Seagoon]

Ok, Full-Disclosure: Inorganic Chemistry and Engineering are not my fields at all. So forgive me if my questions from here on in reflect a woeful stupidity:

1) Why can't you crank the engine using pure bio-diesel?

2) How do you start a normal Diesel engine with regular diesel and then switch over to bio-diesel?

- SEAGOON

[JB28]

well for all of us that are rebels, please read the following.  I definitely know where I will fill up!

WHERE TO BUY YOUR GAS

Gas rationing in the 80's  worked even though we grumbled about it.
It might even be good for us!   The Middle Eastern countries are boycotting American goods.    We should return the favor

An interesting thought is to boycott their oil (or that gas that is made from it).
Every time you fill up the car, you can avoid putting more money into the coffers of the middle east. Just buy from gas companies that don't import their oil from them.

Nothing is more frustrating to me than the feeling that every time I fill-up the tank, I am sending my money to people who are anti US.
I thought it might be interesting for you to know which oil companies are the best to buy gas  from and which major companies import Middle Eastern oil :


         Shell..................... 205,742,000 barrels

     Chevron/Texaco......... 144,332,000 barrels
     Exxon /Mobil............... 130,082,000 barrels
     Marathon/Speedway... 117,740,000 barrels
     Amoco.....................62,231,000 barrels
If you do the math at $30/barrel, these imports amount to over $18 BILLION!

Here are some large companies that do not import Middle Eastern oil:
      Citgo......................0 barrels
      Sunoco...................0 barrels
      Conoco...................0 barrels
     Sinclair....................0 barrels
      BP/Phillips..............0 barrels
     Hess........................0 barrels ARC0.0 barrels

All of this information is available from the Department of Energy and each is required to state where they get their oil and how much they are importing.    But to have an impact, we need to reach literally millions of gas buyers.   It's really simple to do.  
Now, don't wimp out at this point... keep reading and I'll explain how simple it is to reach millions of people!!
I'm sending this note to about thirty people. If each of you send it to at least ten more (30 x 10 = 300)... and those  300 send it to at least ten more (300 x 10 = 3,000) ... and so on, by the time the message reaches the sixth generation of people, we will have reached over THREE MILLION consumers!
If those three million get excited and pass this on to ten friends each, then 30 million people will have been contacted!
If it goes one level further, you guessed it ..... THREE HUNDRED MILLION PEOPLE!!!
Again, all YOU have to do is send this to 10 people.  How long would all that take?
If each of us sends this e-mail out to ten more people within one day, all
300 MILLION people could conceivably be contacted within the next eight days!

But hey, that is just me!

JB28

[john9001]

you can run a car on water if you add a small amount of acetylene to the water, problem is , it's highly corrosive
 and costs more than gasoline, was a scam back in 20's or 30's "magic fuel"



good idea jb28, but without mid east oil you would have to ride the bus to work.

oh no , riding buses is for poor people.

[Jackal1]

I believe if and when things get tough enough we will tend to come up with combination fuels or "cut" gasoline. I think maybe a combination of a lot of the alternatives mentioned here could be feasible if enough testing were put into it.
  I don`t really see anything going over real big in the U.S. for a long, long time other than the internal combustion engine.

[Seagoon]

Originally posted by DieAz
in one word, the answer is "greed"

ok, I won't use the "H" word, when addressing you.
(you might want to say a prayer for me though.  )

The wonderful thing about capitalism is that greed is generally balanced out in the kind of ways that don't occur in managed economies. To whit, the agricultural combines in this country (like Con-Agra, ADM, etc.) are almost as powerful as the Oil Companies, and some have even more legislative clout. If they thought for a moment that there was some way to make the entire US economy absolutely dependent on Soybean Oil (or Algae Ponds) there wouldn't be any stopping the legislative steamroller in the same way that awful ethanols are now mandated at the pumps in several states, and since these are the companies that would utterly dominate full scale bio-diesel production, it seems to me that they must see some sort of hurdles or they'd be pouring R&D and Lobbying dollars into this.

- SEAGOON

[hawker238]

Originally posted by FUNKED1
Nothing new about the perpetual motion machine...

I know, and flying machines... like those will ever work.  And subs being driven by nuclear reactors and staying submerged for months!  Who are these wacky people?

(My dad actually met Rickover, btw)

[g00b]

Biodiesel and veggie-oil or "greasel" as we call it are not the same thing.

Biodiesel is made through a chemical process called transesterification whereby the glycerin is separated from the fat or vegetable oil. The process leaves behind two products -- methyl esters (the chemical name for biodiesel) and glycerin (a valuable byproduct usually sold to be used in soaps and other products).

http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/Production.PDF

You use biodiesel just like regular diesel. No modifications necassary. Same operating procedures.


Greasel is just raw waste veggie-oil run through a filter. You must keep the oil warm or it thickens. For this reason you start and shut down the engine using regular diesel. Once the engine and associated greasel heating devices are warmed up you switch to the grease. Forgetting to switch to the diesel before shutting off the engine on a cold day is a pain in the arse, involving much mess and liberal use of cuss words.

g00b

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by Seagoon

Ok, Full-Disclosure: Inorganic Chemistry and Engineering are not my fields at all. So forgive me if my questions from here on in reflect a woeful stupidity:

1) Why can't you crank the engine using pure bio-diesel?

You can(a diesel engine of course)

2) How do you start a normal Diesel engine with regular diesel and then switch over to bio-diesel?

With modern diesel engines there is hardly(if any) changes needed, maybe a few hoses

Read up on Rudolph Diesel, you will find alot of interesting articles, I posted a couple