Author Topic: Its not bad being a minority  (Read 3367 times)

Offline Lazerus

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Its not bad being a minority
« Reply #75 on: March 26, 2005, 04:25:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Wasn't Jesus Christ Mediterranian?


Ya gotta be from the southern euro-peein coast to be Mediterranian. Everybody knows that the rest of the coastline don't count.

Offline Seeker

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Its not bad being a minority
« Reply #76 on: March 26, 2005, 06:21:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lazerus
Like I said, WHO authorised it?

Did God whisper in your ear and tell you it was the right version??


"Me and you,

and a whole slew

of people noticed you didn't answer the question. "


"Or are you saying that each and every version of the Christian bible is valid?"

"Did God whisper in your ear and tell you it was the right version??"

Well did he?

This a dialogue or a rhetorical monologue?

Your turn to answer a question.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #77 on: March 26, 2005, 06:38:13 AM »
Seeker, the old testament was (is) a holy book of the Jews.

The original version was written in a language so that the Hebrews could read it.  Probably then it was written in Hebrew.    Jesus was schooled in it, as He was a rabbi.

Is that then your "authorized" version?
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Offline Lazerus

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Its not bad being a minority
« Reply #78 on: March 26, 2005, 06:38:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seeker
The authorised literal word of God.


I asked you first. You can't say what version it is that you hold to be the authorised version of the word of God?

Are you ashamed of your faith?

Are you talking out of yer prettythang?

Can you answer a simple question??

I wait in shivering anticipation for your next witty attempt to evade a simple and straightforward question. Don't keep me waiting too long.

Offline SunTracker

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« Reply #79 on: March 26, 2005, 07:08:19 AM »
They showed a picture of her brain, next to a normal brain on tv the other day.  The majority of her head is now fluid.  Doctor called it the worst case of hydrocehpla he had ever seen.  Schiavos brain has almost totally disentegrated.  It was in two parts, narrowly joined in the middle.  Each segment was about the size of a very small strawberry.  There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that she is only surviving on the very primitive parts of the brain.  The parts that control the heartbeat and the breathing.  She will never recover, and its totally amazing she is even alive.

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #80 on: March 26, 2005, 12:36:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SunTracker
They showed a picture of her brain, next to a normal brain on tv the other day.  The majority of her head is now fluid.  Doctor called it the worst case of hydrocehpla he had ever seen.  Schiavos brain has almost totally disentegrated.  It was in two parts, narrowly joined in the middle.  Each segment was about the size of a very small strawberry.  There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that she is only surviving on the very primitive parts of the brain.  The parts that control the heartbeat and the breathing.  She will never recover, and its totally amazing she is even alive.


So... is this what this all about? All of the money, the time, the arguing... because Shiavo's parents cannot accept the fact that their daughter is already gone? The body that remains is nothing but an empty shell that with the miracle of modern medicine manages to breathe, pump blood, and digest food.

Hell... if they know her brain is gone, it's time to use medicine to simply stop the heart.
sand

Offline Engine

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« Reply #81 on: March 26, 2005, 01:57:04 PM »
HOW DARE YOU SANDMAN?  THERE'S STILL A CHANCE FOR HER!

"Hey honey, let's keep the pitiful remains of our daughter alive for 15 years to torment the man she loved enough to marry!"

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #82 on: March 26, 2005, 02:04:45 PM »
Seagoon and Holden,

Thank you very much. Yep that was the type of info I was hoping to get interjected into the thread here and in a non emotionally charged manner.

Going back to my earlier and lengthy post. Can you address some of the questions I postulated?

Example: I understand fully the concept that murder is a state of mind as well as law and the law is in fact worded to incorporate the state of mind. (intent)

How does the situation of the doctors in this case come into play. There is the oath they took (Hypocratic oath) to dono harm. Does the prolonging of life in a body constitute "harm".

If in the case of a person who cannot live without exceptional medical steps, without any reasonable hope of returning to a "functioning" human being, a doctor maintains that life, are they "interferring with God's will"? I ask this as it is rather pertinant to the discussion. If in fact, the braqin of this woman has degenerated as described in an earlier post, is prolonging a life of an "empty body" really God's will" or the will of man?

It would seem to me that if the "intent" of the doctor involved to stop exceptional life support is to end suffering it is not murder. On the other hand if the "intent" of the husband is one of monetary gain, then that would be obviously a "murder" as described in the writings that Seagoon provided based on the state of mind.

How say you?
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Offline Kirin

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« Reply #83 on: March 26, 2005, 02:57:04 PM »
Quote
... This starvation thing is insane, I'm pretty sure she has a very low metabolism so that prolly means she will take a while to die.


Not true. If you stopp the fluid supply it will be over in a matter of days no matter how low her metabolism is.

Again, I've talked to specialists in palliative care. We discussed the issue of terminal hydration. Many doctors fear if they pull the infusion (or feeding tube for that matter) in terminally ill people they suffer a slow death. But as I said in the other thread it's not to compare to the situation a healthy individual would face if left stranded in the desert. Even if her brain was fully functional, e.g. in terminal tumor patients (without brain metastasis), she will not suffer "thirst" as healthy individuals do. Nature has developed mechanisms to make death less stressfull. Falling into a delirium is one of it. Keeping fluid supply up will just prolong death and suffering (in said tumor patients).

Conclusion is that terminal hydration is applied in patients who can express their will do so; or in  patients that are in a reversible state that make food/fluid intake impossible (e.g. obstruction of the gastro-intestinal tract), which can be treated by surgery, radiation, drugs etc.

Apallic patients (e.g. with no higher brain function) are usually seen without chance of return after 1 year. Sure there are stories about people that came back after years but those are very, very few exceptions and those cases have to be examined throughoutly for cause of coma and come-back.

---

Maverick has done a nice sum-up of the oath of Hippocrates (which literally includes very impractical stuff like feeding through your mentors family). We are here not to HARM patients, which not always means prolongin life.

What I learned during med school is that those end-of-life situations are not a matter of laws (gods or states) but are always a very private issue between the doctor and his patient (family). The will of the patient is what have to respect to the outtermost. And if he fails to express it the "presumed" will. Of course always in agreement with their surroundings.
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Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #84 on: March 26, 2005, 03:15:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SunTracker
They showed a picture of her brain, next to a normal brain on tv the other day.  The majority of her head is now fluid.  Doctor called it the worst case of hydrocehpla he had ever seen.  Schiavos brain has almost totally disentegrated.  It was in two parts, narrowly joined in the middle.  Each segment was about the size of a very small strawberry.  There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that she is only surviving on the very primitive parts of the brain.  The parts that control the heartbeat and the breathing.  She will never recover, and its totally amazing she is even alive.


Suntracker,

My objections to the starvation of Terri Schiavo (incidentally, eyewitnesses who just visited her indicates that she is bleeding from the eyes and tongue, her skin is flaking off and she looks like an "Auschwitz Victim") don't center on the medical testing that has or has not been done, but despite that the assertion that "her brain is jelly" that is being made again and again by Michael Schiavo's lawyers needs to be answered.

The following is from a commentary on the subject written by Rev. Robert Johansen indicating beyond a shadow of a doubt that she hasn't received even the most rudimentary health care (for instance court records indicate that several of her teeth had to be extracted due to advanced tooth decay - she hasn't even had basic dental hygiene) and that none of the tests that could firmly support the "Brain Jelly" thesis have been ordered or performed, which is odd considering that presumably it would have damaged the parents case (the fact is that Michael has spent far more on lawyers than even rudimentary medical care) :

"Terri’s diagnosis was arrived at without the benefit of testing that most neurologists would consider standard for diagnosing PVS. One such test is MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging). MRI is widely used today, even for ailments as simple as knee injuries — but Terri has never had one. Michael has repeatedly refused to consent to one. The neurologists I have spoken to have reacted with shock upon learning this fact. One such neurologist is Dr. Peter Morin. He is a researcher specializing in degenerative brain diseases, and has both an M.D. and a Ph.D. in biochemistry from Boston University.

In the course of my conversation with Dr. Morin, he made reference to the standard use of MRI and PET (Positron Emission Tomography) scans to diagnose the extent of brain injuries. He seemed to assume that these had been done for Terri. I stopped him and told him that these tests have never been done for her; that Michael had refused them.

There was a moment of dead silence.

“That’s criminal,” he said, and then asked, in a tone of utter incredulity: “How can he continue as guardian? People are deliberating over this woman’s life and death and there’s been no MRI or PET?” He drew a reasonable conclusion: “These people [Michael Schiavo, George Felos, and Judge Greer] don’t want the information.”

Dr. Morin explained that he would feel obligated to obtain the information in these tests before making a diagnosis with life and death consequences. I told him that CT (Computer-Aided Tomography) scans had been done, and were partly the basis for the finding of PVS. The doctor retorted, “Spare no expense, eh?” I asked him to explain the comment; he said that a CT scan is a much less expensive test than an MRI, but it “only gives you a tenth of the information an MRI does.” He added, “A CT scan is useful only in pretty severe cases, such as trauma, and also during the few days after an anoxic (lack of oxygen) brain injury. It’s useful in an emergency-room setting. But if the question is ischemic injury [brain damage caused by lack of blood/oxygen to part of the brain] you want an MRI and PET. For subsequent evaluation of brain injury, the CT is pretty useless unless there has been a massive stroke.”

Other neurologists have concurred with Dr. Morin’s opinion. Dr. Thomas Zabiega, who trained at the University of Chicago, said, “Any neurologist who is objective would say ‘Yes’” to the question, “Should Terri be given an MRI?”

But in spite of the lack of advanced testing, such as an MRI, attorney George Felos has claimed that Terri’s cerebral cortex has “liquefied,” and doctors for Michael Schiavo have claimed, on the basis of the CT scans, that parts of Terri’s cerebral cortex “have been replaced by fluid.” The problem with such contentions is that the available evidence can’t support them. Dr. Zabiega explained that “a CT scan can’t resolve the kind of detail needed” to make such a pronouncement: “A CT scan is like a blurry photograph.” Dr. William Bell, a professor of neurology at Wake Forest University Medical School, agrees: “A CT scan doesn’t give much detail. In order to see it on a CT, you have to have massive damage.” Is it possible that Terri has that sort of “massive” brain damage? According to Dr. Bell, that isn’t likely. Sometimes, he said, even patients who are PVS have a “normal or near normal” MRI.

So why hasn’t an MRI been done for Terri? That question has never been satisfactorily answered. George Felos has argued that an MRI can’t be done because of thalamic implants that were placed in Terri’s skull during the last attempt at therapy, dating back to 1992. But Felos’s contention ignores the fact that these implants could be removed. Indeed, the doctor who put them in instructed Michael to have them removed. Michael has never done so.

The most obvious possible explanation for what would otherwise be inexplicable behavior is that Michael Schiavo, George Felos, and Judge Greer don’t want to admit any information that would upset the diagnosis they already have. Dr. Morin, when told that Michael had refused an MRI, and that Judge Greer had confirmed the decision, said: “He refused a non-invasive test? People trying to do the right thing want the best and most complete information available. We don't have that in Terri’s case.” Dr. Bell agreed with this assessment, saying, “It seems as though they’re fearful of any additional information.”

[from: http://www.beliefnet.com/story/162/story_16292_1.html]
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Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #85 on: March 26, 2005, 04:04:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick

Going back to my earlier and lengthy post. Can you address some of the questions I postulated?

Example: I understand fully the concept that murder is a state of mind as well as law and the law is in fact worded to incorporate the state of mind. (intent)

How does the situation of the doctors in this case come into play. There is the oath they took (Hypocratic oath) to dono harm. Does the prolonging of life in a body constitute "harm".


The short answer is no. All medicine, rightly understood is geared towards extending life. Medicine is not simply aimed at killing germs as an end in and of itself, the doctor prescribes the medicine that kills the germs in order to acheieve the end of keeping the patient alive.

Following the Second World War, Europe had to step back and reassess the state of ethics in medicine, particularly in light of the fact that Nazi doctors had created the idea of "Therapeutic Killing." They particularly wanted to create a code that would prevent the recurrence of eugenics and euthanasia as acceptable practices within the medical community. The result was the Geneva Code (1948) of the World Medical Association:

I solemnly pledge myself to conconsecrate my life to the service of humanity; I will practice my profession with conscience and dignity; the health of my patients will be my first consideration.

I will respect the secrets which are confided in me; I will not permit considerations of religion, nationality, race or party politics or social standing to intervene between my duty and my patient; I will maintain the utmost respect for human life even under threat.

I will not use my medical knowledge contrary to the laws of humanity. I make these promises solemnly, freely and upon my honor.


The WMA was for many years absolutely opposed to any reintroduction of discussions of doctors terminating the lives of their patients regardless of their condition. They maintained that the role of a doctor must always be to preserve life, never to take it. This was especially the case, because when states begin to insist that the lives of patients be "terminated" under certain conditions, questions of utility inevitably creep in, and after a while you are firmly on the ski slope to medical murder.

Quote
If in the case of a person who cannot live without exceptional medical steps, without any reasonable hope of returning to a "functioning" human being, a doctor maintains that life, are they "interferring with God's will"? I ask this as it is rather pertinant to the discussion. If in fact, the braqin of this woman has degenerated as described in an earlier post, is prolonging a life of an "empty body" really God's will" or the will of man?

It would seem to me that if the "intent" of the doctor involved to stop exceptional life support is to end suffering it is not murder. On the other hand if the "intent" of the husband is one of monetary gain, then that would be obviously a "murder" as described in the writings that Seagoon provided based on the state of mind.

How say you?


Maverick, I'm not going to begin to argue that if at some point we can keep a body whose head has been entirely severed "alive" that we must do so. Such an existence could not meet even the vaguest definition of "a life."

However it is clearly God's revealed will that we protect the defenseless and weakest members of our society. The clear witness of scripture is that we must feed and care for the handicapped, retarded, and brain damaged to the best of our ability. This includes feeding them and taking care of their medical needs. In doing so, no matter how inconvenient it is to us, we are serving God and obeying his will. Contrary to the belief of the Nazis the Imago Dei is present even in the retarded and brain damaged and we are just as obligated to them as we are to newborns.

That is what we are talking about at root with Terri, we had a moral obligation to feed her and provide for her medical needs. She did not require a machine to breathe for her, or pump her blood, her body simply needed sustenance, and she could have been taught to eat (several nurses fed her orally without aspiration until Michael forbade it) and perhaps to perform other basic functions. Instead all steps have been aimed from the get-go at causing her to die out of "quality of life" concerns. Her parents have throughout been willing to care for her but have been legally prevented from doing so. This is an involuntary Euthanasia case, pure and simple, but we have reached the point societally where we have left the concerns of the Geneva code behind us and seem ready to resume the practice of "Therapeutic Killing."

If we are indeed just grown up Germs ourselves, and the philosophy of Nietzche is true, then there is no reason not to embrace the practice of state authorized therapeutic killing as the Dutch and Scandanavians already have. Of course, you'd better hope you are and continue to be one of the fit and healthy Ubermensch and not some subhuman unworthy of life.

- SEAGOON
« Last Edit: March 26, 2005, 04:06:18 PM by Seagoon »
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Offline TweetyBird

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« Reply #86 on: March 26, 2005, 04:13:47 PM »
>>Tweety, you're right and we're wrong. Bask in your victory, you crusader.<<

How about this, VOR. You read an affidavit given by a neurologist who visited Terri Shiavo.

http://www.nationalreview.com/pdf/Affidavit.pdf

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #87 on: March 26, 2005, 05:44:14 PM »
Seagoon,

Thanks very much for the answer.

Here is my take on the situation. I have an opinion on it but it is not soley based on this (Terri) particular situation but a bit more general.

I understood what you quoted about having the utmost concern and consideration for human life on the part of medical personell. I fully agree there but I am not sure prolonging it is really demonstrating that concern.

It is my opinion that if the life has degenerated to the point of a vegitative state that the option  should be available to the patient to release the patient from an existance that is worse than permanent solitary confinement in perpetual restraints. I understand there is a concern about the "slipery slope" of taking a step back towards the elimination of a people that you raised. I don't see that as necessarily following that path. To me, maintaining a life, no matter how low functioning it is, particularly of a once vibrant and fully functioning human being is not  a sign of care for THAT life. If that is the wish of the patient then certainly the medical folks should be required to follow through as best they can. If it is not then they are not respecting the life that actually belongs to the patient.

To me this is an example of free will granted to us by the Creator (however a person may be given the light to see Him) that we exercise our abilities and choices. Of course, if I am wrong I suppose I shall be called to task shortly after shuffling off this mortal coil. I can only hope that my choicew will be judged in the context they were made and the intent used to make them. We are a fallible life form and me most of all.

The counterpoint of it would be the state removing all choices from us and I find that equally abhorant. I fervently believe the state is here to serve it's constituants and not the other way around.
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Offline VOR

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« Reply #88 on: March 26, 2005, 08:15:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TweetyBird
You read an affidavit given by a neurologist who visited Terri Shiavo.
 


Ok, I read it. I see the very heartfelt words of a professional, expert witness. It was as clinically heartwarming as I'm sure his book will be.

I heard earlier today of an emergency appeal.

Offline TweetyBird

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« Reply #89 on: March 26, 2005, 10:54:05 PM »
>>Ok, I read it. I see the very heartfelt words of a professional, expert witness. It was as clinically heartwarming as I'm sure his book will be<<

Yup, thats about what I expected. Discredit anyone that presents facts that don't fit in nicely with your random opinion based on voodoo and acedotal evidence.