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[StarOfAfrica2]

Originally posted by Skydancer
"The police are not our bodyguards. "



Why does iot say "Protect" on the side of their cars then?

I sense a real joke in the name on that police car, but I'm going to refrain.

[Skydancer]

Good isn't it!

glad you copped the joke!;)

[Airhead]

Originally posted by GScholz
Of course you're too blided by your hate and stupidity...

Ah yeah, THERE'S the GSholz we all know and love, degenerating a discussion into a name calling contest.

[StarOfAfrica2]

Originally posted by Raider179
In August of 2000, the Violence Policy Center released License to Kill III, a report that details the number of concealed weapons licensees in Texas who have been arrested for crimes after getting a concealed weapons permit. Using data from the Texas Department of Public Safety, the Violence Policy Center found that Texas concealed handgun license holders were arrested for a total of 3,370 crimes between January 1, 1996 and April 30, 2000, including very serious violent offenses like murder, rape, sexual assault, and weapons-related crimes. An analysis of the Texas data also reveals that, between 1996 to 1999, Texas CCW permit holders were arrested for weapon-related offenses at a rate that was 66% higher than that of the general population of Texas.

On July 6, 2001, an unnamed man fatally shot 17-year-old Jacob W. Walton during a road rage altercation in Spokane, WA. Walton was a passenger in a car that got into an altercation with the shooter. According to police, the shooter had a concealed-weapons permit

"Road rage shooter had gun permit," Associated Press report appearing in the Post-Intelligencer, July 10, 2001

During the summer of 2000, Austin, TX, taxi driver Wayne Franklin Lambert Jr. shot and killed two unarmed men, both high-tech professionals, who had been his passengers. According to police, Lambert, a gun enthusiast with a Texas concealed-handgun license shot one of the men three times in the back. The other victim gave a deathbed statement, saying that the taxi driver became angry over something his friend had said and challenged him to a fight. Other cab drivers gave police sworn statements saying Lambert was "very short-tempered" and "always angry at just about everything." One cab driver claimed Lambert once said, "I would shoot someone over a dollar." According to state records, Lambert was charged with assault after beating, choking and threatening to kill another taxi driver in August 1994. Lambert was charged with capital murder, representing the second multiple murder case brought against a Texas concealed-gun licensee in the last three years

On June 11, 2000, Jamie Cokes, 26, of Pittsburgh, PA, shot and killed 30-year-old Leon Blair. In 1998, Cokes had been shot in the face by a robber while driving his cab. He later told a local paper that he had a permit to carry a gun and would shoot the man who had shot him. Cokes and Blair knew each other, and, according to the victim's brother, Cokes "was always talking about shooting people." Cokes later admitted to police that Blair was not the man who shot him in 1998

On May 30, 2000, a fistfight turned into a gun battle outside the home of Dale Cramm, 44, of Everett, WA, resulting in the death of two teens. Cramm's son was later charged in the deaths, and Cramm himself was charged with witness tampering, tampering with physical evidence, and three drug-related felonies. Police also confiscated an arsenal of weapons, including five shotguns, three SKS assault rifles, 3 other rifles, bayonets and high-capacity magazines. Within days after the weapons were confiscated, Cramm, who was out on bail, allegedly went to a local gun show and purchased more firearms. According to police, Cramm used his CCW permit as identification to purchase guns at the gun show

On January 27, 2000, Louis Mockewich, 34, of Philadelphia, PA, shot and killed a neighbor who was shoveling snow behind his rowhouse. The two neighbors had been arguing over where the victim was placing the snow, and Mockewich's solution was to pull out his gun, for which he had a CCW permit, and kill the 31-year-old man. The victim, too had a CCW permit

On December 14, 1999, Adam Sousa, 25 of Naples, FL, pulled a .357 from a holster before leaving the dog track, and shot two men. Sousa, said to have been angry over an argument at the poker table, was asked to leave the game. As he headed toward the door, Sousa pulled the gun and pointed it, threatening to kill the track parking attendant. Sousa then shot two others. Sousa, a CCW permit holder, was intoxicated at the time of the shooting

There are a lot...These are just the ones I found before I got tired of looking. Plenty of killings by CCW holders. Although I gotta say I also saw a lot of "incidents" of CCW holders where the gun went off accidently and shot someone. I would like to see a comparison of the number of justified shootings by CCW holders versus unjustified/accidental.

There are plenty of statements of "he did this or that" here, but no records of any convictions?  I tried searching for the Austin taxi driver, I got one newspaper article that required registering to read it, and the same internet report you quoted.  Other newspaper sources from the area had nothing.  Surely in 5 years they have decided that case?  I have serious doubts about CCW holders being arrested 66% more often than anyone else, I'd like to see the data they used for that comparison.  

I'm not sure what the requirements are for getting a concealed carry permit in Texas, from what I hear its not difficult.  I still would have a hard time believing anyone would go to the trouble to GET one, and then do something stupid enough to cost him not only his carry permit but the right to ever own a gun again.  Period.  Not to mention giving up their freedom for a cell and a new boyfriend named Bubba.  In my experience, people who DO carry guns are far more responsible than the average joe when it comes to guns.  Maybe I've just been lucky.  I would like to see how many of the stories you quoted actually resulted in a conviction against the CCW permit holder.

[DieAz]

Originally posted by Skydancer
"The police are not our bodyguards. "

Why does it say "Protect" on the side of their cars then?

they protect and serve "the public".
an individual, by rulings of the courts, is not "the public".

[SKJohn]

Originally posted by AWMac
Yes Storch it's true. I lived in Arizona and they do have an open carry. There's nothing like strolling into a McDonalds and see a few holsters with firearms.  I think it deters alot of crime.


Mac

I live in AZ and it reminds me of the time I was standing in line at the local Wal-Mart.  A few people in front of me was a big, biker looking dude, with a .45 on his hip for all the world to see.  The blue-haired granny next to me leans over to whisper "what's with these nuts that think they have to bring guns when they go shopping?"  I just kinda smiled and nodded......didn't think she'd take it so well if I lifted my shirt and showed her the Glock I was carrying.  (Yes, I have a CCW.)  Even though open carry is allowed in AZ, I prefer not to advertise that I'm armed - let that be a big surprise to the bad guy!

[storch]

Originally posted by DieAz
they protect and serve "the public".
an individual, by rulings of the courts, is not "the public".

one night several years ago I saw a guy with a lonnnng barrelled automatic shotgun running down W 20th Ave which parallels the Palmetto expressway in Hialeah.  I thought to myself how odd.  I drove on. at the next light I saw a cop on the side of the road enjoying a smoke and writing reports in his cruiser.  I appraised him of the situation and he replied that he would take it under advisement and went back to his report.  It was almost surreal.  The police will take care of themselves first, each other after that and the public when they get a chance.  you had better be able to respond to your own needs and let the cops eat their donuts, write their reports and annoy you in general. don't count on them for much because they aren't worth much.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
There are plenty of statements of "he did this or that" here, but no records of any convictions?  I tried searching for the Austin taxi driver, I got one newspaper article that required registering to read it, and the same internet report you quoted.  Other newspaper sources from the area had nothing.  Surely in 5 years they have decided that case?  I have serious doubts about CCW holders being arrested 66% more often than anyone else, I'd like to see the data they used for that comparison.  

I'm not sure what the requirements are for getting a concealed carry permit in Texas, from what I hear its not difficult.  I still would have a hard time believing anyone would go to the trouble to GET one, and then do something stupid enough to cost him not only his carry permit but the right to ever own a gun again.  Period.  Not to mention giving up their freedom for a cell and a new boyfriend named Bubba.  In my experience, people who DO carry guns are far more responsible than the average joe when it comes to guns.  Maybe I've just been lucky.  I would like to see how many of the stories you quoted actually resulted in a conviction against the CCW permit holder.

well aparently its easy to get a CCW in texas so that would probably up the number of people that commit crimes that Have a CCW.

So basically because you cant disprove it so its wrong huh? People who carry guns are far more responsible? your joking right? I can't even name the number of times I have seen some ******* showing off his pistol or rifle...And thats just personal experience. Its not just who I know either, gun lovers are exactly that they love guns and love to show them off, recklessly at times too.

You would like to see a conviction? I think several of those stories said conviction so disprove it or accept it....

final note I have nothing against responsible people owning firearms. I just think regulation needs tightening. After all your not doing anything illegal with them right?

[Raider179]

Originally posted by SKJohn
 I just kinda smiled and nodded......didn't think she'd take it so well if I lifted my shirt and showed her the Glock I was carrying.  (Yes, I have a CCW.)  Even though open carry is allowed in AZ, I prefer not to advertise that I'm armed - let that be a big surprise to the bad guy!

kinda proves my point.

Another billy bad bellybutton with a gun that cant wait to use it.

[Airhead]

Originally posted by GScholz
Nope, just stating facts. Well known facts on this BBS actually.

Actually the best known fact on this Board is that you have such an anti-American bias you no longer have any credibility.

It's a shame because I agree with you politically on some issues, but the difference is I disagree with the policy, not the people assigned to carry out that policy. Take our soldiers, for example. I see scared kids fighting against a nameless and faceless enemy doing a dirty job and you see sociopathic killers indiscriminately killing Iraqi civilians for fun.

You  take every opportunity to jump into any thread where you can cast an anti-American slant on an issue, then, when someone questions your obvious bias, you resort to name calling and insults.

Hey, I'm just calling em like I see em- maybe you could do what Skydancer does and reinvent yourself every couple of weeks, but given your rudeness and hatred of America it'd be pretty easy to "out" your new ID within a post or two....

Otherwise keep posting your anti-American drivel, never apologize when facts prove your statements to be wrong, and keep on with the name calling and insults in the true Euro style of civility- I think it speaks more about you than it does about us.

[lazs2]

raider...  I think you will find that CC holders are indeed the most law abiding of all groups of citizens.   The articles you cite I have never heard of nor have I seen the results or even the trials of these individuals.  

You claim to think that firearms ownership is ok if... if what?  If they tighten up the regulation?   exactly what would that be?  give me some examples of tightened rgulations that would allow law abiding citizens to defend themselves and still satisfy your need for... for what?  

then... name one gun control law in the last 30 years that has saved lives or prevented crime.

and skyprancer/zulu... the police are there to take the report after the crime... if they happen to see it they will stop it tho.


lazs

[Airhead]

Uh... Quote you? OK, how bout your last post?

"I thought our immigration policies were dangerously naive, but yours seem like pure folly."

That took less than a minute.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by lazs2
raider...  I think you will find that CC holders are indeed the most law abiding of all groups of citizens.   The articles you cite I have never heard of nor have I seen the results or even the trials of these individuals.  

You claim to think that firearms ownership is ok if... if what?  If they tighten up the regulation?   exactly what would that be?  give me some examples of tightened rgulations that would allow law abiding citizens to defend themselves and still satisfy your need for... for what?  

then... name one gun control law in the last 30 years that has saved lives or prevented crime.

and skyprancer/zulu... the police are there to take the report after the crime... if they happen to see it they will stop it tho.


lazs

1) Every firearm should be shot before selling and ballistics done so if it is used in a crime it can be identified.

2)Gun shows need a lot of regulating.

3)I don't like the CCW law. I would prefer to see fire-arms being carried in a holster. Prevents a lot of those accidental shootings.
I also think people with guns on their hip would be a bigger deterrent to crime than someone with one in his pocket.

4)CCW permit holders are probably a more well behaved group but they are by no means perfect or will not commit a crime with a weapon just becaue they have a CCW.

5)Instead of one that saved lives how bout you name one that caused deaths...Oh right can't because its such an open-ended statedment.

[john9001]

Originally posted by Raider179
1) Every firearm should be shot before selling and ballistics done so if it is used in a crime it can be identified
 

the pattern on the bullet is not like a fingerprint,every time a bullet go's down the barrel the pattern changes a little, more so with FMJ bullets.

the only way this works is if the police get the gun right AFTER the crime and can match it to the bullet used at the crime.(if not deformed too bad)

another liberal feel good law.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by john9001
the pattern on the bullet is not like a fingerprint,every time a bullet go's down the barrel the pattern changes a little, more so with FMJ bullets.

the only way this works is if the police get the gun right AFTER the crime and can match it to the bullet used at the crime.(if not deformed too bad)

another liberal feel good law.

really?

Studies have shown that no two firearms, even those of the same make and model, will produce the same unique marks on fired bullets and cartridge cases.  Manufacturing processes, use, and abuse leave surface characteristics within the firearm that cannot be exactly reproduced in other firearms.

Firearms do not normally change much over time.  This allows for firearms recovered months or even years after a shooting to be identified as having fired a specific bullet or cartridge case.  Tests have been conducted that found that even after firing several hundred rounds through a firearm the last bullet fired could still be identified to the first.

It should be noted that not all firearms leave consistent reproducible marks.  But overall it has been my experience that around eighty percent of the firearms that I examine produce what is sometimes called a "mechanical fingerprint" on the bullets and cartridge cases that pass through them.

http://www.firearmsid.com/A_FirearmsID.htm