Author Topic: God and the US of A  (Read 2000 times)

Offline WMLute

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« Reply #75 on: April 18, 2005, 04:39:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saintaw
It might not be a "law" but it would certainly make sense. Stop being obtuse.


well, try sticking to the topic at hand then.  you merely stated an opinion, that has nothing to do with the U.S.'s seperation of Church and State.

So far nobody has come close to anything resembling a valid point.  Several misguided, or off the mark opinions, but not one showing anything having to do with the U.S. Govt.

Keep trying.  I'm being entertained.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #76 on: April 18, 2005, 04:43:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saintaw
It might not be a "law" but it would certainly make sense. Stop being obtuse.


OK, so it IS just your opinion.

Here's the problem: The law is the law and opinions are not the law.

You, Skydancer, Nash... whoever... may think things are "not the way they should be" here in the US with respect to religion and politics.

You are all unable to find any documentation to support that position.

So, we just get.... "We'll it's not right. It doesn't make sense. Sensible people don't mention religion and politics."

Sorry. You may not like Bush or what he says. I don't support him in all things either.

HOWEVER, I prefer a guy like him to some "sensible" politician that is very careful to hide what he actually believes.

Further, he hasn't masked his religious beliefs AND he was lawfully elected. TWICE.  So it's pretty clear as well that a significant number of American voters DO NOT share the collective concerns of Nash, Saw and Sky.

As far as "right", it's clear Jefferson would have no problem with Bush's open professions of his religion. Nor is there anything in the Constitution that prohibits Bush from expressing his religious beliefs and basing his decisions on his moral principles.

I think this entire thread just gets down to "we don't like Bush".

Gosh.......... what a revelation. Hasn't been anything like that on the BBS before.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Online Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #77 on: April 18, 2005, 05:07:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Silat
That is a very slippery slope . I dont support many things this admin is doing. So I guess my taxes shouldnt go towards any of those programs? I vote my reps to do what is right for all of us not any specific religious group.
And I support a womens right to have complete and absolute control of everything inside her skin.


No slippery slope hotshot. First off, funding any such programs with federal taxes is unconstitutional. NOWHERE in the Constitution are such programs mandated nor provided for.

Funny, it is okay to starve an invalid, without certain proof of his or her wishes, it is okay to pull an infant from the womb and stab it in the back of the head with scissors and suck its brains out, but it is NOT okay to execute a convicted murderer.

It ain't about "women's rights", it is about what is or is not proper according to the Constitution. Abortion is an example, not an absolute. We could just as easily use "welfare".
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Seeker

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« Reply #78 on: April 18, 2005, 05:22:24 PM »
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Church and state are in some ways more closely linked here in the UK than in the US.

However the ceremonial function of the head of state and the personal belief of our politicians is seperated from the actual policy implentation and governance of the country as far as possible.

 


Care to cast some light on the role of Anglican Bishops and the house of Lords; Skydancer?

I've been away a while; and I'm probably out of date.

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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« Reply #79 on: April 18, 2005, 05:29:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Oddly enough, for about 180 years, in the United States, it was fine to have children pray in school,  the Ten Comandments were found in most government buildings and courthouses (laws here were based on the Judeo Christian values found in the Ten Commandments), the Pledge of Allegiance had God in it for 30 years, the phrase "In God WE Trust" was on our currency, and referrences to God were on most all of the documents authored by the "Founding Fathers".

Then we had Madelyne Murray O'Hare decide that prayer was offensive to the huge masses of athiests we had. Suddenly, after this, it became the "IN" thing to try to remove every reference to God and Judeo Christian values from everything the government was associated with.

But Nash thinks it's the "fundamentalist wackos" who are trying to change everything.:rolleyes:

The truth is, the silent majority has grown sick of the direction the country has taken since the fringe on the far left has become fashionable and seen fit to attempt to remove God from everything, and is now seeking to protect the Judeo Christian principles on which the country was founded.


Fundamentalist wackos?  They mostly live in Montana and dont bother anyone until you try to arrest them for not paying taxes.  

Seriously though, I have to admit I am a bit bothered by a movement that calls itself "Judeo-Christian" but doesnt involve any Jewish folks (slight attempt at humor, probably bad).  It seems that members of the Right are more interested in making Christianity a rallying point for PACs than a church that reaches out to find and save lost souls.  The very basis for our religion is love, peace, and understanding of our brothers.  Yet I have seen some very hateful rhetoric coming out of those camps when it comes to certain issues (gay marriage for one).  I'm not going to start an argument on that issue, but we as Christians should not be encouraging legislation that spells out who can and cannot be married.  Extrapolating just a bit, thats just setting a precedent for govt. interference in all sorts of areas traditionally seen as the private arena of the Church.  The Christian Coalition may encourage faith based legislation, but I think they have gone too far.  Too much legislating, not enough soul saving.

Lets examine some of the issues currently being backed by these folks shall we?  Many of them have religious implications, and they SHOULD stand up for their rights on those.  Its allowing the govt. too much control either way if open displays are banned vs legislating morality.

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Making permanent President Bush's 2001 federal tax cuts, including the marriage penalty tax cut and supporting President Bush's tax reform Helping the Congress make permanent the president's 2001 tax cuts, including all income tax cuts, the marriage penalty tax cut, child tax credit, etc. now set to expire in 2010. In addition, since the American people waste about $300 billion in tax preparation costs every year because of the hugely complicated Internal Revenue Service code and laws, Christian Coalition will support tax reform which could include abolition of the IRS and the federal income tax and replacing it with a flat tax or a national sales tax with people in lower income tax brackets getting refunds (possibly monthly refunds.)


This is great and all, but what does it have to do with Christianity, or even just religion in general?  Someone at the office likes it (or more likely they just want to back the Prez.), so lets back this.  BS.  

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Helping pass President Bush's Social Security reform (private accounts for young people and up to age 50). Christian Coalition will support Social Security reform which President Bush strongly supports and possibly the legislation to be introduced by Senator John Sununu or Senator Lindsey Graham and by Congressman Paul Ryan in the U.S. House of Representatives. President Bush wants Social Security reform to include turning President Roosevelt's New Deal-era retirement program into a self-financing private investment accounts system which workers could own and control. Right now those receiving Social Security cannot give the remainder of their benefits at their death to their children. The White House is considering letting workers put up to 4% of their payroll taxes into stock or bond funds. It will be similar to the hugely successful federal employee retirement system that now lets workers invest in several stock, bond, or fixed investment securities. In the beginning of the new Social Security private account system for younger people, there would be limited investment choices: three or more, all fully diversified, low-risk funds.


GREAT!  I'm all for revamping the SS system.  Only I'm not sure the proposed system is right.  I dont appreciate my church telling me how to vote on issues I'm not sure I like.  Which is what they are doing when you boil it down.  But still, lets go on.

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Getting a vote on the Marriage Protection (constitutional) amendment in the United States Senate (which was filibustered by Minority Leader Tom Daschle's left-wing Democrats earlier this year), and then getting a vote in the U.S. House again. Although there was a vote on the "Marriage Protection (constitutional) Amendment (MPA) sponsored by Congresswoman Marilyn Musgrave, R-CO, in the U.S. House of Representatives, left-wingers led by now-defeated Minority Leader Tom Daschle, prevented a vote on the MPA on the U.S. Senate floor. Christian Coalition was the only major organization supporting the Musgrave marriage amendment from the beginning when she introduced it in May 2003, and supported a similar constitutional amendment introduced by Senator Wayne Allard in late 2003. Although Congresswoman Musgrave got a 227-186 majority in the United States House of Representatives in 2004, a constitutional amendment needs 290 votes in the House and 67 Senate votes. Christian Coalition will work to grow the votes until it finally passes Congress and is sent to the state legislatures where 38 states are needed to ratify the marriage constitutional amendment allowing it to become the 28th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. One Senator believes that after the huge support for the state constitutional amendments (an average of 71% have supported the 13 state constitutional amendments this year) and the infamous 4-3 Massachusetts Supreme Court decision allowing homosexual "marriages", the federal constitutional marriage amendment could even pass this year.


Touchy subject.  Very controversial.  And they are totally on the wrong side.  Christians should be keeping the govt. totally OUT of the argument over marriage.  Again my church is asking me to support something when I believe we are needlessly giving up some of our rights in this if it goes through.  But I digress, and I've already made my views clear enough on this subject.

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Passing Senator Shelby's/Congressman Aderholt's Constitutional Restora.Act.of 2004. Senator Richard Shelby's (S. 2082) and Congressman Roberta Aderholt's (H.R.3799) "Constitutional Restoration Act of 2004" will restrict the applellate jurisdiction of the U.S. Supreme Court and all lower federal courts to that jurisdiction permitted to them by the U.S. Constitution.


Again, what does this have to do with being Christian in the US?  Or just being Christian?  Or even being religious?  Now because the courts have made some decisions we dont like, they want to legislate away their power?  Thats a serious issue, and requires more thought than anyone involved has seen fit to give it.  Its a knee-jerk reaction to "I didnt get my way, now I'm going to push to legislate you into the ground".  The judicial system, for all its flaws, is one of the 3 pillars of our society, and part of the check and balance system our founding fathers built into our govt. from the beginning.  I get alarmed when people start talking about "Constitutional amendments" and "limiting the power of the courts" just because they dont like whats already there.  I think its very dangerous if any one branch of the govt. gets too much power.  

There are also initiatives to sponsor bills from Anti-cloning to abortion pills to bills that give money to faith based charities, child custody, protecting Chritian holy sites in and around Israel, etc.  All of those have an impact on our faith and should be supported I believe.  

I belive however, that your "silent majority" has swung far to the opposite end of the spectrum, and are becoming the very thing they fought.  Federal control of our lives.  Legislating the Left out of existence isnt the answer.  Two wrongs dont make a right.  They just make two wrongs.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2005, 05:32:29 PM by StarOfAfrica2 »

Offline weaselsan

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« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2005, 06:29:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Silat
nash I agree with totally. But you will never get agreement from the cult members who think their religious values are something that should be legislated.

JeBush


Name one religious value that anyone wants to legislate as law?

Offline ChickenHawk

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« Reply #81 on: April 18, 2005, 06:33:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Now because the courts have made some decisions we dont like, they want to legislate away their power?  Thats a serious issue, and requires more thought than anyone involved has seen fit to give it.  Its a knee-jerk reaction to "I didnt get my way, now I'm going to push to legislate you into the ground".  The judicial system, for all its flaws, is one of the 3 pillars of our society, and part of the check and balance system our founding fathers built into our govt. from the beginning.  I get alarmed when people start talking about "Constitutional amendments" and "limiting the power of the courts" just because they dont like whats already there.  I think its very dangerous if any one branch of the govt. gets too much power.  
 


God help this country if congress somehow is able to weaken the power of the judicial branch.  We must not loose the checks and balances our forefathers put down for us.

Excellent post Star.  As a Christian I agree 100% that the Christian Coalition is out of controll and is a danger to this nation.
Do not attribute to malice what can be easily explained by incompetence, fear, ignorance or stupidity, because there are millions more garden variety idiots walking around in the world than there are blackhearted Machiavellis.

Offline Silat

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« Reply #82 on: April 18, 2005, 06:53:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by weaselsan
Name one religious value that anyone wants to legislate as law?



Anti Gay agenda
Abortion

Thats 2.

             
Your faith belongs in your heart not in my face.
+Silat
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Offline Silat

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« Reply #83 on: April 18, 2005, 06:56:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
No, do like everyone else does. Vote for the folks you think will represent you best and pay your taxes even if they do not win.


I was answering Hilts. And I do pay my taxes.
+Silat
"The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them." — Maya Angelou
"Conservatism offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future." B. Disraeli
"All that serves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason."

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #84 on: April 18, 2005, 06:58:41 PM »
What specific laws are you talking about?

Did they ban being gay?

Did the murder of unborn children get banned?


I thought I would have seen it on Cnn or something.

Offline Silat

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« Reply #85 on: April 18, 2005, 07:01:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
No slippery slope hotshot. First off, funding any such programs with federal taxes is unconstitutional. NOWHERE in the Constitution are such programs mandated nor provided for.

Funny, it is okay to starve an invalid, without certain proof of his or her wishes, it is okay to pull an infant from the womb and stab it in the back of the head with scissors and suck its brains out, but it is NOT okay to execute a convicted murderer.

It ain't about "women's rights", it is about what is or is not proper according to the Constitution. Abortion is an example, not an absolute. We could just as easily use "welfare".



Hotshot? :)
Not sure what you are talking about. Teri? Well the facts and 14 years of legal briefs dont support your contention.

And since the almighty himself hasnt let me know what he thinks I prefer to err on the side of personal freedom. Your rights end at my daughters skin.

But you see I support your right to believe what you want. And Im not mad at you for it:)
+Silat
"The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them." — Maya Angelou
"Conservatism offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future." B. Disraeli
"All that serves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason."

Offline Lizking

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« Reply #86 on: April 18, 2005, 07:02:49 PM »
I hate to steal the nut fom all you squirrels, but  right/left politics has no correllation to religion.

Offline Lizard3

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« Reply #87 on: April 18, 2005, 07:03:49 PM »
Nash, the table man, the table. Bring it.

Dont slap a pretty picture of a turkey and dressing on the table and yell "suppers ready". Its not nice, wife and kids might find some other table to get food from.

Oh, no wife and kids? Sorry.

Oh, Nash bailed on page one? Sorry...

Offline Lizard3

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« Reply #88 on: April 18, 2005, 07:06:05 PM »
Oh yeah, and put something in the subject asking Toad to pleeease not read the thread. You'll look better in the end.

Offline bustr

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« Reply #89 on: April 18, 2005, 07:07:06 PM »
Jefferson was very concerned that all men had the right to worship freely or not, and express their religious views in public without censure. This bill has the founding concepts of the meaning from the first section of the 1st Amendmant.

Thomas Jefferson
on
Religious Freedom
 
Jefferson's Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom in the
State of Virginia

"SECTION II. We the General Assembly of Virginia do enact that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.

You can read the whole bill here: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7842/rfindex.htm

Before you attempt to use one document out of context to support your "Feelings", or revise the history of one of our founders, it might do some good to research the man in some depth to see how he truely felt about the issue. You can see he had no problem with worshiping God or not, or expousing belief of in public and office, or religious doctrine in any context, private or civil.............The president of the United States is a member of We the People, and a citizen of the United States who's religious rights and views are protected by the 1st amendmant. Like we have the right here to discorce our religious views, so does he in the office of President or in the privacy of his home.

If you don't like a president who speaks his faith in office, then turn of the channel, start a constitutional convention, or get an athiest elected next time. But this presidents Freedom of Religion is protected by a document you don't seem to have found the time to read.......................
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.