Author Topic: I'm Not Moving to Scandanavia After All...  (Read 2508 times)

Offline Toad

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« Reply #90 on: April 18, 2005, 03:27:03 PM »
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf

As I said, anyone has the option to leave to a country like US if they're greedy and after big bucks..


Get 'em, Scholz.

I'm glad you're don't let him say stuff like that and get away with it.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline -spawn

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« Reply #91 on: April 18, 2005, 03:28:10 PM »
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I could have lost my appartment in the process, though, and end up in the streets forever.


Don't you have a family?

Granted, I understand that there are people who don't have family, or whose family would chose not to help, or whatever.  But the vast majority of us should have someone around who can lend a hand, right?  And for the others, I can cope with the idea of some sort of social welfare since they don't have other options...

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Spawn it's a fact that many people are driven to crime because of thier living conditions.

It's not always possible to find a job immediately and you got to eat and pay the rent. Once a person gets hungry enough - or once a person listens to his child cry hunger for a day or two, crime starts to feel very appealing trust me.


Um, no, most commit crime because they choose not to pursue non-criminal options for moneymaking (for whatever the reason).  

I'm not proposing that social welfare be eliminated.  So, whether it's the US or Norway, there's no reason that kids should go hungry... we both have more than enough social welfare to provide for that sort of thing.

As for someone being driven to crime... why is that?  Is that because they're not willing to work two jobs to make ends meet?  Or because they aren't willing to be a burger-flipper, janitor, garbageman, or ditch-digger?  Most of the time there are choices other than crime.  Of course, it might be easier to commit the crime than work two jobs at minimum wage... but don't claim that you were driven to commit it.

Offline Staga

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« Reply #92 on: April 18, 2005, 04:38:45 PM »
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Originally posted by -spawn
Sure, except that your tax burden is much higher.



Oh, that and the fact that your cost of living is much higher.  

In either case, it's not as simple as saying that you get greater reward (compensation) for greater achievement.  Relative to the US, you pay a greater percentage in taxes, and have to spend more money (on average) to achieve a similar standard of living.


Then again one country is completely without foreign debt while other one is in bad debts and loaning more money from around the world.
One is practising a policy which in long run literally pays back with the interests while other one is the one who shovel out the money for paying their debts and interest paids.

Offline -spawn

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« Reply #93 on: April 18, 2005, 05:18:59 PM »
Change the subject, eh?

PS - Bad debts?  Oh really?

Offline Staga

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« Reply #94 on: April 18, 2005, 05:33:48 PM »
7,782,816,546,352$ In Debt which is about 26000$ per US citizen.
I'd say that's quite much but of course your mileage may vary.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/08/opinion/main686839.shtml

Then in the Norway...
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Norway has been saving its oil-boosted budget surpluses in a Government Petroleum Fund, which is invested abroad and now is valued at more than $43 billion.


No foreign debt at all; they are the ones who are collecting the money from you.

Offline -spawn

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« Reply #95 on: April 18, 2005, 07:34:33 PM »
Of course you don't have any foreign debt, you don't have massive world responsibilities either.

PS - Bad debt = defaulting on debt, we haven't done that...  perhaps you want to brush up on all that economics stuff?

Offline Fishu

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« Reply #96 on: April 18, 2005, 07:43:31 PM »
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Originally posted by -spawn
Of course you don't have any foreign debt, you don't have massive world responsibilities either.


Yeah, its smart to not start wars without a very good reason.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #97 on: April 18, 2005, 07:48:54 PM »
Lets not forget one simple fact: Europe can afford its lavish egalitarian welfare systems because papa USA has been providing and paying for much of the defense for his little darlings across the pond for the last 60 years...  This is not boasting, this is not bashing, this is not taunting - it's simply fact and it was neccesary considering the cold war. So please Europeans keepo that in mind when you heap praise on "your" wonderful social systems and bash the USA for spending too much on the military instead of healthcare or education..

However, when that protection ends, and it will, Europe will either be defensless or they will have to seriously reconsider their welfare spending. Especially considering Europes ageing and declining population which will provide a much smaler tax base of working young people to feed the government cauffers. Maybe you think the EU can be a world power without any realy military responsibilities, like Japan maybe? Well, lets be honest here, who has defended Japan?

Maybe China will provide for Europe's defense whwen the USA no longer does? OPr maybe you will have to reconsider your social systems..

Offline Fishu

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« Reply #98 on: April 18, 2005, 08:03:35 PM »
The USA has been in europe due to its own interests, not just for its good will of defending europe.

Offline -spawn

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« Reply #99 on: April 18, 2005, 08:15:25 PM »
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The USA has been in europe due to its own interests, not just for its good will of defending europe.


True, but irrelevant with regard to this protection enabling Europe to create its redistributionist social welfare utopia.

Offline Siaf__csf

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« Reply #100 on: April 18, 2005, 08:37:29 PM »
Toad: Get away? With what?

Greed = Not wanting to share your own with the less fortunate up to an extent of changing your location for it.

So if you're greedy you have the option to move to 'less limited' US where the hard work can be paid off.

One aspect of this hasn't been discussed at all: were you aware that europeans work much much shorter average working hours per week? Enough so to explain the differences in income.

So it's the US way of hard work and high returns with little sharing opposed to valuing both more free personal time and sharing your fortune with the misfortunes.

Offline sling322

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« Reply #101 on: April 18, 2005, 10:30:02 PM »
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Originally posted by Staga

Then in the Norway...
 

No foreign debt at all; they are the ones who are collecting the money from you.



Great....then why dont you guys go take care of all the problems in Africa that we supposedly dont care enough about that people always bring up as a retort when anybody mentions that Saddam had to be removed from power.

Offline -spawn

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« Reply #102 on: April 18, 2005, 10:35:45 PM »
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spending.htm

Add up the expenditures.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/active-force.htm

Add up the troop strengths.

I think you'll find that, at best, the material numbers are similar... but the European capabilities typically fall short due to underinvestment.

And don't even ask about defense spending as a percentage of GDP:  
http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=2665&sequence=3
http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=2976&sequence=2
« Last Edit: April 18, 2005, 10:39:01 PM by -spawn »

Offline FUNKED1

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« Reply #103 on: April 18, 2005, 11:21:32 PM »
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
So it's the US way of hard work and high returns with little sharing opposed to valuing both more free personal time and sharing your fortune with the misfortunes.


We have plenty of sharing.  It's just that we like to accomplish it voluntarily and not by government coercion.

Offline Staga

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« Reply #104 on: April 19, 2005, 02:10:10 AM »
Scandinavian countries alone have 3,5million men and women who have gone thru military training.
Try to remember that it's mandatory around here.