J-10 fighter

[F4UDOA]

Charon,

The opposite is true of Egypt and Syria.

Syria is a run down country with a conscript army and no matter if we gave them F-22's they would not threaten Israel becuase the March to Domascus would take about 1 1/2 hours. The greatest threat to the Israeli's in the North is Iran Via the Hizbulla. The same guys who killed 200 US Marines in Beruit.

Egypt however still has a very modern Army with Mubarik as Ruler who was himself a fighter pilot during the Yom Kippor war. They do not rattle the saber as you are used to hearing from many of his middle eastern neighbors but they do other things like fly overs into Israeli Air Space with Civilian Airliners to test reactions etc. There is even tourism between the two countries but never is there any doubt as to the real threats to Israel. They have already had three wars with Egypt in the last 50 years.

1. Iran
2. Egypt<== Also has M1A2 Abrams Tanks.

You are concerned about a war to save Taiwan. The Israeli's are worried about a war to save their own country.

FYI, the Lavi is 80's technology. I thought the US paid Israel not to produce and resell it in the first place?

A very similar thing is happening now with the Tank program is Israel The US is trying to sell them Abrams instead of the home built Merkava IV. I believe they stuck with the home grown version this time since the Egyptions have the Abrams already.

[Charon]

The relations are cool, largely related to Palestinian issues, but fairly warm even compared to Egypt’s relations with other Arab states. As you point out There is a fair amount of travel and tourism (Israel is the No. 1 destination for reasons other than work and pilgrimage); there is a lot of joint business going on; Israel just signed a 2.5 billion deal to import natural gas from Egypt and inked a tri-party trade deal allowing Egypt to export duty-free goods to America as long as they contain 12 percent Israeli-made components. From a military standpoint, there hasn’t been a hot conflict since 1973, the accords were signed with US military sales as part of the deal (as I recall), and… Israel has over 200 nuclear weapons that would vaporize any number of M1As or F-16s should a serious threat develop to Israeli survival. Taiwan (Likely) has no nuclear defense option itself, and it is unlikely that a hot war over Taiwan would escalate to Nuclear war between the US and China (not worth it either way) so nukes become a non issues in that potential conflict.

I mean, really, the survival of Israel from external “traditional” threats is hardly in question, since the more moderate nations don’t want to be vaporized and even countries like Iran, having a bad day with extremists in control, would have to think long and hard before doing anything that would constitute a serious threat to Israel’s survival.

FYI, the Lavi is 80's technology. I thought the US paid Israel not to produce and resell it in the first place?

Our primary combat aircraft in use today and carrying most of the burden for some time to come are also 80s technology from an aerodynamics standpoint. The Lavi data provided a framework to improve aerodynamics, fly by wire etc from the 1960s and 1970s to a modern level, and Israeli companies have been competing against the Russians to provide more sophisticated 90s era Avionics and weapons systems (Apparently the Russians won that bid). The J-10 is seen as being comparable to somewhere around F-16C standards or better (though that remains to be seen). The Python 3 and 4 missile technology and the latest Russian missile technologies make it a notable threat, at least according to the AF and Navy. I would be more irritated at the Russians, but then there has never been a special relationship there and they are just filling an export need. As to the US paying not to produce and export, we also paid for a good share of the development. Indirectly the same with the Python 3 system. So, if somebody is going to make money on these systems with core US technology, even if it is against our best interests, it might as well be the US.

A very similar thing is happening now with the Tank program is Israel The US is trying to sell them Abrams instead of the home built Merkava IV. I believe they stuck with the home grown version this time since the Egyptions have the Abrams already.

All Israel has to do is stop taking the money. We’re not giving it out so that Israel can buy stuff elsewhere -- it’s a corporate subsidy. Frankly, I believe it would be in the long-term best interests of both the Israelis and the US arms manufacturers to end the relationship. The Israelis would be masters of their destiny, free of any US interference, and the US arms manufacturers would have to concentrate on a broader marketing strategy based on performance and competitive costs and export competition. Where’s the next export plane from the US for the masses? The US Gripen? How many nations can (if allowed) buy a fleet of JSF? {edit: if cost projections stay on target, maybe a few...] Not much real economy of scale in those programs outside of US orders though. It’s hard to turn back the plethora of mergers and lack of FTC oversight that have created a non-competitive internal aerospace/military systems market, but maybe more natural competition would be a start.

Charon

[Halo]

(quote)
Let's see ... They took the nose of a MiG-29, the engine of an Su-27, the tail of an F-16, and the wings of a Mirage and cobbled it all together. It's like Lego!
(unquote)

Exactly what I was thinking, GScholz.  Something like the most successful vehicles in any category tending to evolve into similar designs, but rarely with such distinctive components.

[Joker312]

It is a Chinese designed fighter, with international technology from several manufacturers - like practically any fighter design of these days. [/B][/QUOTE]

What "international technology" was used in the manufacture of the F14, F15, F16, F18, F22, JSF, A4, A5, A6, A7, A10, ect? Please inform us all what technology was bought or stolen to develop those aircraft.

For the past 50 years the US has had some of the most brilliant aircraft designers on the planet... we have had no need to use other countries designs or technology.

[Joker312]

and it was  operational toady if you damn yanks werent so affreid of alittle competition. [/B][/QUOTE]

Thats pretty funny, lets see...... if we didnt GIVE you F16's, F15's, F4's, A4's, M48, M60, M113, GE engines, Honeywell, Litton, Hughes, and a miriad of other computerized, minitureized, highly capable weapons and sensor technology, Israel would be practicing the muslim religion.

It galls me that we give away our tech to allow Israel to survive and they turn around and sell it to our enemies. Remember when Israel sold the russians the computer tech to enable them to make quiet screws for nuc subs?

I am 1 american that supports stopping all arms/tech shipments to Israel. They sure dont act like an ally and cause way more trouble than they are worth.

[Charon]

It galls me that we give away our tech to allow Israel to survive and they turn around and sell it to our enemies. Remember when Israel sold the russians the computer tech to enable them to make quiet screws for nuc subs?

That was actually Toshiba in Japan, and it was precise milling machines sold through the Norwegian Kongsberg firm. To this day I refuse to buy Toshiba, even when they are the best product for what I am looking for. That bastard Walker, who should have been smoked over a decade ago, let them know exactly how far behind they were at the time.

Charon

[Flyboy]

Originally posted by Joker312

Thats pretty funny, lets see...... if we didnt GIVE you F16's, F15's, F4's, A4's, M48, M60, M113, GE engines, Honeywell, Litton, Hughes, and a miriad of other computerized, minitureized, highly capable weapons and sensor technology, Israel would be practicing the muslim religion.

It galls me that we give away our tech to allow Israel to survive and they turn around and sell it to our enemies. Remember when Israel sold the russians the computer tech to enable them to make quiet screws for nuc subs?

I am 1 american that supports stopping all arms/tech shipments to Israel. They sure dont act like an ally and cause way more trouble than they are worth. [/B]

some guys just cant take a joke

and besides most of the avionics in our planes is israely developed, so deflate your ego abit.

[GScholz]

Joker, jet engines, radar, and swept wings comes to mind. Every AC manufacturer in the world uses whatever technology they can get their hands on. Borrow, steal, kill.



LFAX-4—a variable-sweep configuration
LFAX-8— a fixed-sweep version of LFAX-4
LFAX-9—wing-mounted twin-engine configuration
LFAX-10—similar in external shape to Soviet MiG-25 Foxbat

[Joker312]

GSholtz,

Thats why I wrote last 50 years. I am well aware of the tech that we aquired from the germans after our victory in WW2. In the years following that war US designers pretty much made most of the areodynamic breakthroughs with few exceptions. VSTOL technology is one that comes to mind.

The bottom line is I dont think the LAVI is any thing other than a redesigned F16. IMO, Israel dont have the right to transfer that to China.

Flyboy, I can take a joke, sorry if I missed your pun. And my ego is not inflated. I am just lucky enough to live in the greatest country in the world at this time.

[GScholz]

I think you will find that most people in the civilized world think they live in the greatest country in the world ... regardless of nationality.

[F4UDOA]

Joker,

If it were not for Einstein and Oppenheimer we night be marching to some funny music ourselves so I would n't puff yourself up to much.

Also Israel does develope all of it's own Avionics. We sell them the shell of the aircraft. They don't even use our seats. Their's allows the pilot to pull more G's. Check the results of the Red Flag exercises with the IDF.

BTW they also developed the Arrow Anti-ballistic missle system.  We cannot because of the last Nuke treaty we signed saying that we will not develope such a system. The Israeli's have not signed this treaty and can develope these systems and then they are tested in California. And guess what, it works.

Our great technical prowess still can't get the Patriot working properly.

FYI, If the US had listened to Israel in 1981 we wouldn't be fighting a war there today.

[Joker312]

Originally posted by F4UDOA
Joker,

If it were not for Einstein and Oppenheimer we night be marching to some funny music ourselves so I would n't puff yourself up to much.

Also Israel does develope all of it's own Avionics. We sell them the shell of the aircraft. They don't even use our seats. Their's allows the pilot to pull more G's. Check the results of the Red Flag exercises with the IDF.

BTW they also developed the Arrow Anti-ballistic missle system.  We cannot because of the last Nuke treaty we signed saying that we will not develope such a system. The Israeli's have not signed this treaty and can develope these systems and then they are tested in California. And guess what, it works.

Our great technical prowess still can't get the Patriot working properly.

FYI, If the US had listened to Israel in 1981 we wouldn't be fighting a war there today.

Dont really know where your going with that F4 but I believe Einstein and Oppenheimer were both working under the direction of the US government and were here because some megalomaniac would have killed them if given the chance.

As far as I know all modern fighter aircraft are pretty much limited to the +9 G area due to HUMAN limitation not ejection seat capabilities. Besides lets see how good they do without that airframe. As far as the avionics packages go, US equipment is by far the world leader. End of story.

We had ABM systems way before they ever did and as you state, due to treaty limitations did not pusue them.

And boy are you wrong about the Patriot. That system was rushed into battle before it was fully certified. When the software was perfected and the operators got up to speed, they performed magnificently. There are reports of SCUDS breaking up upon reentry and Patriot missles being able to target the warhead among much debris and destroying it. Look it up, its on the net. And heres another good story.... In the IAF fighter pilots were the most highly regarded military personel. Now its the IAF Patriot battery operators. Ask an Israeli.

As far as listening to them in '81. Politics is not my forte. Weapon systems are.

I am enjoying this:)

[Joker312]

Originally posted by GScholz
I think you will find that most people in the civilized world think they live in the greatest country in the world ... regardless of nationality.

Last reply for tonight:)

I can understand that GS, but I can back up my claim with facts. Those other people cant. Let me explain.....

For comparison we shall use Germany as an example.

1) The US is #1 in world GDP, Germany is #5 (US is almost 5x better than Germany)

2) Unemployment rate for the US is 6%, Germany is 10.5%

3)Per Capita GDP: US is #2 behind little Luxemburg. Germany is #6. (US is approx 35% better at $37,800.00 vs $27,600.00)

4)Electricity production: US #1, Germany #7 (US produces more than 7x more)

5) Airports with paved runways: US #1, Germany #7 (US has 15X more at over 5100 to Germanys 366)

6) Military Expendetures: US #1  Germany #6 ( US at 10x more than Germany)

7) Railways: US #1 Germany #6 (US with 5x more)

Now you might say that Germany is much smaller than the USA but these are world rankings... The US leads much larger countries in size and population. All these facts are easily verified on the web.

So while others my feel their homeland if the best place to live in the world the facts just dont support their claims.

I do understand that there are many beautiful, prosperous places to live on this planet and I dont wish to say that Germany is not a nice place to live, nor is Norway or Sweden or England, ect, ect but the USA is the world leader in so many categories that I find myself fully justified in my beliefs.

[GScholz]

1) The US is #1 in world GDP, Germany is #5 (US is almost 5x better than Germany)

- This point does not say much at all, since it does not factor in population.



2) Unemployment rate for the US is 6%, Germany is 10.5%

Norway 3.5%



3)Per Capita GDP: US is #2 behind little Luxemburg. Germany is #6. (US is approx 35% better at $37,800.00 vs $27,600.00)

- 2004 figures:

USA $40.100
Norway $40.000

4)Electricity production: US #1, Germany #7 (US produces more than 7x more)

- Another non-issue. Obviously a smaller population will require less electricity. Has nothing to do with living standard or "greatness".

5) Airports with paved runways: US #1, Germany #7 (US has 15X more at over 5100 to Germanys 366)

- Another non-issue.

6) Military Expendetures: US #1  Germany #6 ( US at 10x more than Germany)

Must also be seen in relation to population. I believe Israel tops that one.

7) Railways: US #1 Germany #6 (US with 5x more)

- Another non-issue.


Now you might say that Germany is much smaller than the USA but these are world rankings... The US leads much larger countries in size and population. All these facts are easily verified on the web.

- Yes they are

So while others my feel their homeland if the best place to live in the world the facts just dont support their claims.

- Well, mine do and you can add free healthcare, pension, social security etc.

I do understand that there are many beautiful, prosperous places to live on this planet and I dont wish to say that Germany is not a nice place to live, nor is Norway or Sweden or England, ect, ect but the USA is the world leader in so many categories that I find myself fully justified in my beliefs.

- I know the USA can be a good place to live, perhaps even best if you're very fortunate. However it can also be one of the worst places to live if you're unfortunate. I guess that's why the USA never scores high on the UN Human Development Index.


- Anyways ... isn't this an O' Club topic?

[Joker312]

GS your numbers are just alittle off my friend. Norways unemployment rate is 4.7% unadjusted.

As for the US getting a low ranking on the UN Human Development Index, I hardly think 8th out of 177 is low. The US is in the TOP 5% ahead of ALL other MAJOR world powers such as Japan, Germany, England, China, Russia, France, Italy,and Spain.

Also, to say that most of my previous examples are "not a factor"or a "non-issue" is just not true. All of those examples are revelant to a countries mobility, productivity, industrialization, manufacturing capacity, and overall well being of its population.

And the US also has welfare programs that provide healthcare for those that cant afford it, a social security program that has been in effect for almost 80 years, ect. Its just that in the US, thats not the only option. Here if you work hard and save you have the oppoutunity to provide yourself a much better retirement than any social program can provide worldwide.

But we digress. My point is made and the fact remains that Isreal did not design that aircraft and has no right to sell or transfer that technology to China. The EU also has a claim IMO. If you look real close at those pic's of the J10, you will notice that the nose/radome/cockpit/tail/afterburner are all copies of the F16 without any modifcation. The fuselage/wing/intake all bear a remarkable resemblence to the EuroFighter. It really dosent look like anything on the aircraft has not been copied from another design. What this shows more importantly is the total lack of originanality that has been a trademark of Chinese aircraft design for the past century. I dont care how many they make, their pilots are still going to be just targets to any competent adversary.

I guess you are correct about one thing, this is probably the wrong forum for a discussion on the relative merits of ones homeland.

I respect your opnions and have enjoyed our exchange of ideas.