Separation of Church and State

[Toad]

Originally posted by Seagoon
You are really unaware that Al Gore and Bill Clinton campaigned in liberal black churches? That liberal churches frequently conduct "get out the vote drives" for the Democrats? That left-leaning churches fall all over themselves to make their pulpits available to candidates like  Rep. Jesse Jackson, Jr. and Barrack Obama?
- SEAGOON

Oooooooooooooh. That's gotta sting. I want to see him wriggle out of that one.

BTW, Sea... could you post that link to your site again.

You've impressed me Preacher. I want to read some more in a more formal setting where you don't have to swat so many flies.

I realized today that I may a rare conservative Universalist. I've got to do some more study to see just how deep in the doo that puts me.

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by Toad
Next, tell me how the Schiavo law an example of the government interfering with a persons practice of their religion?

My religion allows family to make decisions on life support.

[Nash]

Originally posted by Toad
Oooooooooooooh. That's gotta sting.

Doesn't sting one bit. Maybe in your world.

Hope and fear. There is a difference.

Giving a leg up, and giving voice to that, and using that leg to beat someone across the head. There is a difference.

And there is a difference between asking for support, and misusing that support.

Problem is that I no longer know who is using who.

Fine with you? Fine with me.

Cheers.

[Raider179]

Thought there was a law about congress creating a law that is aimed at a single individual. Yeah they might have used some strange wording but we all know that bill they passed was all aimed at Shiavo.

[Seeker]

Maybe bad politicians making poor laws are being confused with philosophers making a constitution?

I get your point and share some of your disquiet on the present situation Nash.

But what Toad is stubbonly holding on to is that poor constitutional interpretation doesn't define a poor constitution; it defines a poor interpreter.

And Seagoon's very properly also pointing out that while your fears are well founded; the principle applies to both sides equally.

I think you two would dance better if you gave each other a bit of room now and again.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Raider179
Yeah they might have used some strange wording but we all know that bill they passed was all aimed at Shiavo.

Strange wording?

AN ACT

For the relief of the parents of Theresa Marie Schiavo.

It applied solely to the Schiavo case; said so right up front. Only allowed a federal court to review the case.

Congress can pass a law that applies to a single person, as long as the law doesn't penalize or punish a single person or group.

Pretty tough to make that into either an example of passing legislation to establish an official religion or preferring one religion over another or an example of the government interfering with a persons practice of their religion.

Despite Nash's concern, the Schiavo law isn't a precursor of the Fall of the Republic.......... or any sort of violation of the 1st Amendment.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Nash
Doesn't sting one bit. Maybe in your world.

[/b]


As a wriggle, the Kansas judge gives you a 2.2 and you are removed from the competition.

Let's review the performance:

Originally posted by Nash

But nobody... NOBODY.... can point out an example of how the left uses the church for political gain.

[/b]

Originally posted by Seagoon
Oh, come on Nash. Surely you don't really believe that? You are really unaware that Al Gore and Bill Clinton campaigned in liberal black churches? That liberal churches frequently conduct "get out the vote drives" for the Democrats?

That left-leaning churches fall all over themselves to make their pulpits available to candidates like Rep. Jesse Jackson, Jr. and Barrack Obama? That People For the American Way and many, many, other liberal pacs receive support and assistance from liberal denominations and churchmen. Do you really need a list of links to click on?

[/b]

Originally posted by Nash

Hope and fear. There is a difference.

Giving a leg up, and giving voice to that, and using that leg to beat someone across the head. There is a difference.

[/b]

So the wriggle is........... "it's not the same when the Democrats do the exact same thing."

Upon further review, the score is lowered to 1.1.

However, I'll remember this one next time I'm in a tight spot debating with Nash.  

[Nash]

Actually Toad, the context of me saying that was in response to Funked saying this:

"...it's clear to me that there is a part of the DNC that is clearly biased against Christians and their beliefs, which is definitely not in the spirit of religious tolerance from which the "separation" is derived. They are trying to marginalize all people of faith as "fanatics" and "zealots". Yes it is merely a tactical response to the GOP's cynical exploitation of religion, but two wrongs don't make a right."

Seagoon's response didn't touch it. Now I would like to hear substantiation of Funked's claim, by either you or Funked or Seagoon.... but excuse me if I don't go off on a tangent about politicians showing up in a church a few days before an election because that is not what I was asking.

[lazs2]

a little confused here...  If I don't think people should be allowed to starve to death by witholding food.... What religion does that make me?

If any of my beliefs happen to coencide with the ten commandments and vote in that manner based on the morality of it... does that mean I am violating some unwritten nash law of seperation of church and state?

And, for the life of me... how does what this one church does so far as membership have anthing to do with the government forming a religion?

And... if The NRA tells me to vote for certain candidates am I violating canadas version of the U.S. constitution?

it's all so confusing.... I can't imagine how teachers and union members must feel with their leaders spewing political messages every week.

lazs

[Nash]

Good morning Lazs.

I'd have to say that you nailed it in your first few words. Go see a pastor or something.

[lazs2]

ya gotta tell me which one you think I should see.   I was baptized a catholic so nuke doesn't feel that I am a christian.

I don't believe in any religion per se but the morality of the christian teachings is pretty close to good law.

lazs

[Toad]

C'mon, Nash, the context is your direct reply to Seagoon, whom you quoted. You got caught speeding by Seagoon...own up.

You'd never let anyone else off if they used the weak defense your trying to use to slide on past.

Instant Replay:

Seagoon posted his take on the original issue that started this thread, the WAYNESVILLE, N.C. issue.

Originally posted by Seagoon

2) The kind of thing that happens when politics, and social concerns are made the driving concern of the church rather than following the pattern set for the church in the great commission. And sadly its not just Republicans co-opting the church. Both parties "cynically" use churches for achieving their political ends.

- SEAGOON

YOU replied to SEAGOON, quoting him exactly and telling him he's not "getting off that easy".

Originally posted by Nash
Sorry, I don't think ya get off that easy...


There it is again. "Both sides cynically using religion for political gain". But nobody... NOBODY....  can point out an example of how the left uses the church for political gain. It's like one of those things that gets said so much it becomes accepted.

I don't accept it.

Show me.

Seagoon accepts your challenge and shows you beyond any shadow of a doubt that "the left uses the church for political gain", with examples.

Originally posted by Seagoon
Hello Nash,

Oh, come on Nash. Surely you don't really believe that? You are really unaware that Al Gore and Bill Clinton campaigned in liberal black churches? That liberal churches frequently conduct "get out the vote drives" for the Democrats? That left-leaning churches fall all over themselves to make their pulpits available to candidates like  Rep. Jesse Jackson, Jr. and Barrack Obama? - SEAGOON

Let's be honest about this. You claim the political left doesn't use churches/religion for political gain.

Seagoon pinned you to the mat.

Get up, dust off and get ready for the next round.

[lazs2]

what I got out of seagoons post was that he belived it was against chritian teachings (and wrong) to vote out members based on their political support of candidates.

While this has absolutely nothing to do with seperation of church and state..... I agree.   I have no idea what is going on in nashs fuzzy head in regards to church and state.

I also got that seagoon feels that any organization has the right to promote candidates that best serve their purpose.   This would be the vast majority of black only churches as well as the ones nash is upset about.

NRA wants one thing... NEA another..  they both send out pamphlets to their members endorsing candidates.   I don't see any real difference or problem here unless it is simply that nash feels that only candidates he supports shouls have religious (or any other) groups backing and that ones that don't support his candidates should be struck down under some "seperation of church and state" rule that he made up.

lazs

[Nash]

Toad (oh self appointed score keeper of intardnet debate), I had asked for substantiation on Funked's claim:

"...Yes it is merely a tactical response to the GOP's cynical exploitation of religion."

...which followed immediately from "They are trying to marginalize all people of faith as "fanatics" and "zealots".

I don't care how you perceive Seagoon coming into it and thinking it can be addressed with the fact that politicians show up in churches.

It's like answering a question that wasn't asked, and then claiming victory (as you are so wont to do in these threads).

Or fine... how about this...

 Toad you rule, Seagoon zinged me and Oh Boy it stings!!!

Now answer the original question?

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by lazs2
And, for the life of me... how does what this one church does so far as membership have anthing to do with the government forming a religion?

It sparked up a debate from a previous post(I missed it). I do not like the church getting involved in politics, I posted this as an example.