Author Topic: Possible game fixes?  (Read 3007 times)

Offline Kev367th

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5290
Possible game fixes?
« on: May 23, 2005, 07:04:38 AM »
Feel free to add/discuss.
These are just some that IMO need addressed.

1) Ditch/Captured/Successfull landing - Doesn't work as it is supposed to. Had succesfull landings at enemy bases with cons around, and vice versa.

2) Ditch model - Just plain idiotic at the moment. Ditching planes in excess of 200mph without a worry in the world.

3)Buffs -
a) Far to easy to set wings/engines on fire.
b) Bombing from F6 view only.
c) Structural limits - Are there any? Seen and done manouvers in a buff that would make your average F-16 pilot green with envy.

4)Collision model - Sorry, if one plane collides, the other does. 'Ya cannae change the laws of physics'. Either a collision happens or it doesn't!

5) GV bouncy rounds - Especially against light skinned vehicles. Bouncing round off M3s etc at 800 and less is just silly. This may also be part of the greater bouncy rounds syndrome against hard skinned stuff.

6) Giant redwoods and grass big enough to hide whole battaliions behind.

I am sure there's more, but thats all I could think of the top of my head.

Oh, one more - Who's got all the sheep!!!
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
Asus M3N-HT mobo
2 x 2Gb Corsair 1066 DDR2 memory

Offline Ghosth

  • AH Training Corps (retired)
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8497
      • http://332nd.org
Possible game fixes?
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2005, 07:35:34 AM »
# 4 This one really grabs me when I live every time I read it. Its like come on people, grow up.

Hoof, hope this doesn't step on your toes, but I'm reprinting your excellent article on netlag here for AH pilots. My apoligies in advance.  Please take the time to Read, reread, and read again until you comprehend it. Once you do you will understand why it has to be the way it is. (Note, was written for Warbirds, but the system's they use are virtually identical.)



Net lag is the phenomenon of plane position distortion resulting from non-instantaneous communication between all the computers running Warbirds. Translated into english, Net Lag is the inaccuracies of what you see on the screen vs. what the other guy sees due to communication delays across the internet.

It is *vital* to understand Net Lag to avoid frustration and to fight effectively in Warbirds. First I will describe my understanding of how the FE (Front End) to Host communication system works.. Once this is done, I will discuss the various situations in Warbirds, and how Net Lag alters reality.



Warbirds is a unique game, in that unlike regular games where all the action occurs in one spot (on your computer), Warbirds occurs on hundreds of computers across the world. Every player has a copy of the Front End, and all communicate with the Host. The Front End consists of the flight simulator and the gunnery system. All flying and shooting (including collision detection, plane flying characteristics, and gun hit determination) occurs on the Front End. Thus, the only computer that determines whether you hit another plane is your own, the only computer that tells what your plane does is your own, and the only computer that determines whether you hit someone/something with guns or ground ordnance is your own. No collision detection or ordnance hit determination for you or anything you drop/fire is done on any other computer including the host.

The host is Grand Central Station for Warbirds Information Exchange. Front Ends send messages to the Host, and the Host processes these and dispatches messages back to the Front Ends. The information that the Front End sends to the host are system commands (including plane selection, ordnance selection, base selection, and other commands such as ".fly), messages to other FE's (messages you type, including voice communication), positional information (what your plane is doing and where it is), and ordnance damage information (what you hit, how many rounds fired). The host receives all this and processes it. It sends out to the Front Ends positional information for other Front End planes, damage reports to the Front Ends (which includes FE's plane damage, other plane damage, and ground target damage information), Messages (those that others type to you as well as system messages, including kill messages), and System Commands (such as "your dead", or other system commands, including ejection and other administration commands).

It is vital to understand how the system works in order to understand net lag. The host has no idea of the terrain (except for damagable object information, and the status of the bases and task forces), nor does it do gunnery hit determination or collision detection.

So how does net lag fit into all this? All this message exchange and processing takes time. In order for a gun hit to register on the target's computer, the hit message has to be sent to the Host (anywhere from 1/8th to 1/4th of a second), processed by the Host (anywhere from 1/4th to 1/2 a second, depending on how busy it is), then sent to the target's FE (anywhere from 1/8th to 1/4th of a second). Thus a hit can take up to 1-2 seconds to register, assuming no other (net) delays in communication. Damage to the target gets bounced back to the shooter from the host (not from the other guy's FE), so that the shooter's FE can shows parts falling off and other effects. Positional Data is done the same way, each FE sends positional data for it's plane approximately two times a second to the host. This information is processed, collated, and sent to all the appropriate FEs. This can take a second or two. Here is where the delay occurs. It is vital to remember that any other plane you see in the air is actually their position 1-2 seconds ago on their FE, not their position on their FE at that instant. Thus their actual position could be 1-2 seconds "further along" in reality, on their FE. In addition, your position on their FE is 1-2 seconds old, thus is 1-2 seconds "further behind" in reality.

Always keep in mind: What you see of the enemy is where he was and what he was doing 1-2 seconds ago (on his FE, he has flown for another 1-2 seconds). What he sees is what you were doing and where you were 1-2 seconds ago (you have flown for another 1-2 seconds, but his FE doesn't have that 1-2 seconds of positional info yet). In addition, any reaction you have to something he is doing gets seen in 2-4 seconds after he did whatever you were reacting to. For example, you see him rolling 180 degrees, so you counter that roll. He sees you counter that move 2-4 seconds *after* he did that move. If that move gave him a shot in less than that time, he may have bullets hitting your plane before his FE sees your countermove (which might be bad for your health Or, you hear a ping. By the time his FE sees your knee-jerk jink, he could have been firing at you for 2-4 seconds...

Offline Kev367th

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5290
Possible game fixes?
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2005, 08:07:51 AM »
Thanks for the info on #4.

So basically -
Mr X living in Texas with a 'low' netlag is hosed.
Because Mr Y living in Outer Mongolia on a paper cup and string with a 'high' netlag can just go ahead and deliberately ram and get away with it?

Excuse the bluntness, never played Warbirds, so the your FE, my FE thing has always baffled the hell outta me. If a collision occurs it still seems ridiculous that only one FE sees it.
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
Asus M3N-HT mobo
2 x 2Gb Corsair 1066 DDR2 memory

Offline culero

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2528
Possible game fixes?
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2005, 08:14:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kev367th
snip
Excuse the bluntness, never played Warbirds, so the your FE, my FE thing has always baffled the hell outta me. If a collision occurs it still seems ridiculous that only one FE sees it.


Nutshell: yes the collision occured, but the issue of when you see it on your FE depends on how long the data packet(s) that contain the information it occured take to reach you via the internet. If you and the other player have a significantly different ping time, you won't see anything simultaneously, including collisions.

I agree you're right regarding strict reality, but collisions could simply be exploited maliciously too easily if both planes died. Its one of the concessions for gameplay that are IMO correct to have.

Think of it like killshooter. If you could shoot friendlies, so could griefers. That could cause some significant problems in MA play.

culero
“Before we're done with them, the Japanese language will be spoken only in Hell!” - Adm. William F. "Bull" Halsey

Offline culero

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2528
Possible game fixes?
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2005, 08:18:11 AM »
I'd like to add a suggestion in this thread: allowing bomber gunners to operate their weapons from the ground, rather than in-flight only. Perhaps only while accelerating, to avoid abuse (using spawned bombers as ad-hoc AA batteries), but it would seem reasonable that bombers should not be defenseless against vulchers while legitimately attempting a takeoff.

culero
“Before we're done with them, the Japanese language will be spoken only in Hell!” - Adm. William F. "Bull" Halsey

Offline Kev367th

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5290
Possible game fixes?
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2005, 08:23:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by culero
Nutshell: yes the collision occured, but the issue of when you see it on your FE depends on how long the data packet(s) that contain the information it occured take to reach you via the internet. If you and the other player have a significantly different ping time, you won't see anything simultaneously, including collisions.

I agree you're right regarding strict reality, but collisions could simply be exploited maliciously too easily if both planes died. Its one of the concessions for gameplay that are IMO correct to have.

Think of it like killshooter. If you could shoot friendlies, so could griefers. That could cause some significant problems in MA play.
culero


Thanks - So in which case people living at significantly greater distances from HTC HQ already have an advantage anyway in a collision? If so don't you have a sneaky suspicion that this is already being exploited.

I agree with the buff guns idea. Does seem they should at least have some defence, but when rolling only. (to prevent them being used as static gun platforms).
« Last Edit: May 23, 2005, 08:25:39 AM by Kev367th »
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
Asus M3N-HT mobo
2 x 2Gb Corsair 1066 DDR2 memory

Offline culero

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2528
Possible game fixes?
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2005, 08:45:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kev367th
Thanks - So in which case people living at significantly greater distances from HTC HQ already have an advantage anyway in a collision? If so don't you have a sneaky suspicion that this is already being exploited.
snip
 


Not if I understand it correctly - my understanding being that the server kills the player it sees as having caused the collision. That's a different matter than what either player is seeing.

culero
“Before we're done with them, the Japanese language will be spoken only in Hell!” - Adm. William F. "Bull" Halsey

Offline straffo

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10029
Possible game fixes?
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2005, 08:49:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by culero
I'd like to add a suggestion in this thread: allowing bomber gunners to operate their weapons from the ground, rather than in-flight only. Perhaps only while accelerating, to avoid abuse (using spawned bombers as ad-hoc AA batteries), but it would seem reasonable that bombers should not be defenseless against vulchers while legitimately attempting a takeoff.

culero

it was removed because of "ack staring"

I thing the collision are resolved on the player FE not by the server.
So if you "see" a collision there is a collision else nothing happen.

Offline 214thCavalier

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1929
Possible game fixes?
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2005, 08:51:27 AM »
Buffs used to be able to fire guns whilst on the ground.
Maybe it was changed to STOP the excessive mobile AAA defence tactics.
Seriously there is no valid reason to roll buffs from a capped field unless you intend to provide AAA cover.
It is a gamey tactic, you can still do it but you have to put up with no defence until airborne.
Although I think the real reason the guns were disabled was disabling all weapons whilst on the ground to stop the car bomb tactic.
Whereby the buff would wait until either gv's or aircraft were within range whilst parked, and then drop his bombs from 2 feet killing himelf and anybody else who happened to be within blast radius.

Offline Kev367th

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5290
Possible game fixes?
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2005, 08:53:46 AM »
Quote
I thing the collision are resolved on the player FE not by the server.
So if you "see" a collision there is a collision else nothing happen. [/B]


Lol now I'm totally confused :)

Hypothetical situations -
a) One plane 'creeping' up on another planes six.
b) Two planes flying directly at each other.

Both FE are more likely to register a collision in situation a?
Reason - Slower closure speed, therefore 'contact' would be for a significantly longer time than situation b?

Assuming one pilot has high net lag, other has low net lag.

Right or wrong?

Just trying to understand it.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2005, 09:05:26 AM by Kev367th »
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
Asus M3N-HT mobo
2 x 2Gb Corsair 1066 DDR2 memory

Offline Saintaw

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6692
      • My blog
Possible game fixes?
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2005, 09:07:35 AM »
Culero is explainin the intardnet, ya better listen!!! :mad:

Collisions are detected by your own puter, then that info is sent down the copper wire al the way from Tijuana to Texas. Information sends : You are dead.

Say you collided with Straffo, who lives in a hut on the coast of Normandy... the copper wiring is a bit rusted (The french maintenance was on strike), there's a helluvalota fish between normandy & Texas (More than in Tijuana)... when you see that you collide with him, he still sees you 300 yds away, and will not collide with your Tijuanian wreck... the Normand is free to carry on vulchin your little friends.

Saw (this is a long day...)
Saw
Dirty, nasty furriner.

Offline Kev367th

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5290
Possible game fixes?
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2005, 09:15:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saintaw
Culero is explainin the intardnet, ya better listen!!! :mad:

Collisions are detected by your own puter, then that info is sent down the copper wire al the way from Tijuana to Texas. Information sends : You are dead.

Say you collided with Straffo, who lives in a hut on the coast of Normandy... the copper wiring is a bit rusted (The french maintenance was on strike), there's a helluvalota fish between normandy & Texas (More than in Tijuana)... when you see that you collide with him, he still sees you 300 yds away, and will not collide with your Tijuanian wreck... the Normand is free to carry on vulchin your little friends.

Saw (this is a long day...)


Blunt but at least it makes sense now lol.
Better dig out that old 28k modem ;)
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
Asus M3N-HT mobo
2 x 2Gb Corsair 1066 DDR2 memory

Offline 1K3

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3449
Possible game fixes?
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2005, 09:16:44 AM »
last but not least..

Fix the ata guage measurement for Fw-190A-5! The EB6 values are correct, but not the guage.

Offline dedalos

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8052
Possible game fixes?
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2005, 09:20:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by culero
Nutshell: yes the collision occured, but the issue of when you see it on your FE depends on how long the data packet(s) that contain the information it occured take to reach you via the internet. If you and the other player have a significantly different ping time, you won't see anything simultaneously, including collisions.


WRONG.  That does not determine if you will see it.  It only determins when you will see it.  I have not won a single colision this year.  As he said, if two planes colide, then two planes shoold die.  Just like when you get shot from an impossible angle because in his FE the bad guy had a shot.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24760
Possible game fixes?
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2005, 09:22:06 AM »
LOL Saw!

Kev! Lax! Now RElax!

The collision thingie ... up to the pilot to avoid `em. Bad connect, good connect .... wubba wubba no matter. Rubber bullets would be more the problem. There IS a black and white to collisions. If you don't avoid them, you collide. Why penalize the fellow who did? Now back to lag. IF you have an idea that'll eliminate it once and for all on the internet then I wanna hear it. Show me the money, baybee. I could use it.

HT's smoothing code. Best thing evar! Damn ... now my nose is brown and all. :D :aok