Spit9 vs P38L Critiques Pls

[DoctorYO]

However, if a Spit14 or a Bf109G-10 has to engage a P-38 of simular pilot skill as oneself, starting out from co-E, then the only real safe way to gain a decisive edge is to take the fight long and slow.

 Lots of climbs, long and boring extensions.. etc etc... until the pure vertical separation between the two aircraft is large enough to give the Spit14 a one-sided BnZ opportunity, using the speed and climb advantage to the fullest

I dont concur with this..(the g10 part i do it doesn't turn well)  the spit14 turns just as well as any other aircraft at highspeeds, and that is limited by 6g blackout..

at low speeds < 250 the p38 gets to deploy flaps and can out turn and out radii the spit14 (the out radii being the big one; they turn very similiar until engine torqing occurs..)

as for long boring extensions while that is common in the ma those who do such are inexperienced.

A smart spit14 will high yoyo and saddle..  high yoyo and saddle..  if the fight gets into the str of the p38, looping, low speed turn/radii etc.. the spit14 has major advantage in acceleration and high speed climb to zip away and gain seperation for a quick reverse, and then a long boring extension (heh) in the form of a spiral climb that no aircraft can match except maybe for the g10... then down on top of the p38's head..  nowhere to run.. big fat arse too for hispano's

the key is to keep the pressure on..  those who do the loopy (i call it the la7 syndrone) never ending extensions are really blowing whatever advantage they just thought they made by losing time from sandbagging and being passive..

using lag pursuit the spit14 turns with about any aircraft in the game when the throttle is managed..  throttle to wall i can see how some may underestimate the spit14....

granted many aircraft will out radii the spit14.. its attributes actually lend to this to boot..  but who is going to blow all their e trying to out radii a spit14 is asking for trouble if the spit14 has a clue..  acceleration up to speed then a highspeed reverse..  (spitfire reverse) hence conserving e while reversing (usually 3-5 turn..  i like 4g turns in it..)

and then gain e advantage and then blow that advantage for a solution/lag pursuit saddle....  thats how you do it.. if necessary repeat the above tactics till con is dead....  thats spit14 flying..

(not a dig Kwessa just difference in opinions..)

DoctorYo

[Karnak]

jaxxo,

I personally suspect that most of the P-38 drivers who post here greatly underestimate their skill and attribute it to the P-38.  In other words, they'll out manuver a Spit IX and then claim they just out turned it, when they really had to do a bit of manuvering besides a simple, stick to the stomach circle.

If the P-38 really is as easily dominant as they claim then it would be flown vastly more and long since perked.

[Despair]

Aiming is really easy in P38, ppl underestimate the marksmanship here. I still think aiming is fubared here as some pilots can snipe from 800. been looking tru russina aces articles , they never fired beyond 100 meters, thats corresponds with german aces remarks. Dsitance beyond that is just the waste of ammo.  But here in ah 2 i get sniped from like 800 ft by pellik.(I have a film)

[Morpheus]

The P38 is no different than any other plane in the game. Although it is one of my favorite planes in the set, I think there are many other planes in the set that are just as deadly.

Once you find its strengths and learn how to use them against other planes/oponents in the game it becomes a very dangerous plane. It is this way with anything you fly. A perfect example is Leviathn in a tempest. If its him, and you, and hes Red, you'll probably be dead soon.

For me, it was never about the plane I was flying or the plane I was flying against. Rather who I thought was doing the flying. ie, a newb, or someone who knew a thing or two about a thing or two.

[Despair]

problem is that if its a ww2 sim, pl shouldn be able to hit the plane beyond a certain range. In ww2 ppl didnt have the distance info, etc. I domt know if there are any formulas to reflect wind, distance , etc.

[detch01]

It's a game - no problem  


asw

[Hoarach]

Most of us 38 pilots that usually only fly the 38, will know what the 38 can and cant do.  We will get our 38s to out turn most planes.  For me the only planes that I really havent been able to out turn are yaks, zekes, and spit 5s.  Other than that my 38 can out turn the rest of the planes.  Spit 9s are a good mixture between the spit 14 and spit 5 giving it speed and turning capability but a good 38 pilot can out turn spit 9s.

[slimm50]

Originally posted by humble
Bozon is comparing turn rate (degree's/s) with turn radius (tightness of turn). Basically the spit turns "faster" and the 38 turns "tighter"...so the spit driver is flying "outside" the 38....as he pulls harder and harder the spit slows down till it enters a situation where the 38 outperforms it....id he misses the relatively narrow window for a good guns solution he's now locked into a fight he cant win vs a good 38 driver. Basically the spit driver needs to maintain a good E state and manuever out of plane to the 38 so that his "larger circle" intersects the 38's "tighter circle" appropriately...no amount of "in plane" manuevering will give the spitty both the angualar advantage and E state required to successfully prosocute a sustained attack.

Humble I agree. That's what I was saying/thinking; the type of manuver i suggested would take you out of the 38's plane so you could manuver more efficiently and effectively.

[BTW]

If you cant out turn a yak, how do you out turn a spit9?

[dedalos]

38 will not out turn a V.  The pilot may out fly you

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by Karnak
jaxxo,

I personally suspect that most of the P-38 drivers who post here greatly underestimate their skill and attribute it to the P-38.  In other words, they'll out manuver a Spit IX and then claim they just out turned it, when they really had to do a bit of manuvering besides a simple, stick to the stomach circle.

If the P-38 really is as easily dominant as they claim then it would be flown vastly more and long since perked.

The proverbial nail has been hit directly on its head with such force ... most won't even know it.

[SuperDud]

Originally posted by Karnak
jaxxo,

I personally suspect that most of the P-38 drivers who post here greatly underestimate their skill and attribute it to the P-38.  In other words, they'll out manuver a Spit IX and then claim they just out turned it, when they really had to do a bit of manuvering besides a simple, stick to the stomach circle.

If the P-38 really is as easily dominant as they claim then it would be flown vastly more and long since perked.

Agreed, they could get in most anything and get the same results.

[pellik]

Originally posted by detch01
LOL Pellik -  After the lesson tonight you gave me tonight in 38's I'm hard pressed to argue with you on that, but I'm gonna try anyway. (I was the PJ you were lined up on just before you got nailed - it was all over but the crying for me til my buddy came along and saved my hide).
I agree fully that a stall fight is not where the XIV should be against a 38 (or anything for that matter)- especially one in the hands of someone who knows the 38 well. Torque in the XIV is only a factor when you get it slow in my experience with it and it doesn't do well at slow speeds. It could just be my hands but I've found the 38 tougher to quickly recover from a stall than the XIV. The XIV stall recovery is quicker and crisper than the 38 and it does stall turns pretty well, which makes it a pretty capable roper. What it doesn't do well is hang off the prop with any sort of stability so hitting something above you with it in a vertical stall is pure chance.
Overall, I think with 2 pilots of equally high levels of skill, one in a 38 the other in the XIV and each flying their airplane to its potential and neither making any major mistakes, the XIV has the edge. The XIV driver gets to pick how the fight plays out unless he makes a mistake and gets forced into fighting the 38's fight. The 38 has 2 basic choices, fight at speeds where the XIV is comfortable or stay in the comfort zone for the 38 and hope for a mistake from the XIV driver.
Now get the XIV in a stall fight with the 38 and I agree with you. The 38 has most of  the advantages and should win the fight fairly quickly if the 38 driver is at all competent.
It's a completely different story with a IX and a 38. The 38 has pretty much all the advantages going in save roll rate and acceleration and the roll rate advantage isn't that great. Taking the fight vertical just gives the 38 driver the chance to do the helicopter routine. Which is why when I'm in a spit IX being attacked by a higher P38 and I've managed to have survived to where I can force the situation into a rolling scissors at medium(ish) speeds that's my first choice in that matchup if I don't already have a shot. Getting to that point is not a sure thing by any means and I'm certainly no expert with the Spit, but it works more often for me than anything else I've done in that situation and it works almost as well in the fw's, jugs and ponies.

Cheers,
asw

The spit14's advantages are at very high speed, while defensive flying is usually a game of transitions to lower speeds. The spit can climb away and gain an altitude advantage, but it's just not that capable of getting an attack on a well flown 38. Basically if the 38 runs solid defensive positioning any shot the spit takes will result in a better shot for the 38 after the overshoot. If the 38 doesn't hang himself on the spits rope and the spit doesn't make a bad attack the fight will be a draw.

Of course this isn't considering the horde mentality of the MA. When I see a spit14 hunting me he usually just flys around 5k above me for 20min waiting for me to enguage someone else. I usually head away from the fight and see which of us has the discipline to master the bordum of that retarded style of attack longest.

The spit9 is much more capable against the 38 then the spit14. It just turns better. The spit pilot has to be really good to know how to compensate for the 38s style if we're talking about a co-E merge. The 38 is better imo if there is a large E desparity going into the fight.

Originally posted by DoctorYO
I dont concur with this..(the g10 part i do it doesn't turn well)  the spit14 turns just as well as any other aircraft at highspeeds, and that is limited by 6g blackout..

at low speeds < 250 the p38 gets to deploy flaps and can out turn and out radii the spit14 (the out radii being the big one; they turn very similiar until engine torqing occurs..)

as for long boring extensions while that is common in the ma those who do such are inexperienced.

A smart spit14 will high yoyo and saddle..  high yoyo and saddle..  if the fight gets into the str of the p38, looping, low speed turn/radii etc.. the spit14 has major advantage in acceleration and high speed climb to zip away and gain seperation for a quick reverse, and then a long boring extension (heh) in the form of a spiral climb that no aircraft can match except maybe for the g10... then down on top of the p38's head..  nowhere to run.. big fat arse too for hispano's

the key is to keep the pressure on..  those who do the loopy (i call it the la7 syndrone) never ending extensions are really blowing whatever advantage they just thought they made by losing time from sandbagging and being passive..

using lag pursuit the spit14 turns with about any aircraft in the game when the throttle is managed..  throttle to wall i can see how some may underestimate the spit14....

granted many aircraft will out radii the spit14.. its attributes actually lend to this to boot..  but who is going to blow all their e trying to out radii a spit14 is asking for trouble if the spit14 has a clue..  acceleration up to speed then a highspeed reverse..  (spitfire reverse) hence conserving e while reversing (usually 3-5 turn..  i like 4g turns in it..)

and then gain e advantage and then blow that advantage for a solution/lag pursuit saddle....  thats how you do it.. if necessary repeat the above tactics till con is dead....  thats spit14 flying..

(not a dig Kwessa just difference in opinions..)

DoctorYo

There's a counter to the high yo-yo. Those yo-yos are designed to bring the attacker closer and closer to the defender without losing the 6 line, but each time you do it you have to give up visibility for a few seconds. The defender can do nice gentle turns to position for an overshoot while you're still long range, and when he thinks you're getting too co-E for an overshoot he can pull a hard low yo-yo to get around and come up right underneath you. Resulting in 400-600 range shot and forcing the spit to break off for a moment again, regaining seperation. If the spit is cautious he can stay away from these shots, but he'll never saddle.

Originally posted by Kweassa
The long-range sniping aspect of games like Aces High makes a lot of things twisted and hard as compared to real life.

According to sources like Anthony Williams, 200 meters is about the absolute limit of A2A gunnery against another fighter. 400 meters is the limit against a large, slow, non-maneuvering bomber.

It's not about the ballistics, but rather the situational complexity concerning A2A gunnery which makes targetting over certain distances ultimately futile. Sakai taunts the USN pilots in his Biography, saying "over 500 meters, they are doing nothing but wasting ammunition".

Ofcourse, this doesn't apply to just the P-38, but all the planes in the game.

First of all, are your sources from P38 pilots? Convergence makes a difference, and 38s are not USN planes. Next consider that tactics in WW2 were completely different then they are in here. Those pilots didn't get to go up and spray and pray at targets until they figured out the balistics. They had quite limited training for gunnery. And just because they couldn't shoot effectively at that range doesn't mean the guns themselves wern't capable. I can hit maneuvering targets about 90% at 400, 50% at 600, and 20% at 800. But I pull in 1000 kills a month. If I had only maybe 200 chances to learn to shoot during several years of war I'd probably exclusively hold my shot til 400 too. In short, the hole in realism here is that we can play this game more then real pilots could fly in combat.  



-p.

[pellik]

Originally posted by Karnak
jaxxo,

I personally suspect that most of the P-38 drivers who post here greatly underestimate their skill and attribute it to the P-38.  In other words, they'll out manuver a Spit IX and then claim they just out turned it, when they really had to do a bit of manuvering besides a simple, stick to the stomach circle.

If the P-38 really is as easily dominant as they claim then it would be flown vastly more and long since perked.

Mostly what us 38 drivers like to say is that the 38 is the jack of all trades. The only thing it has going for it that's unmatched by the rest of the plane set is that it's torque free. 38 pilots learn versatility, chosing the right fight for the situation. If fighting a hurri or zeke the 38 isn't going to do so well in a turnfight, but it's faster, dives better, zoomes better, and climbs better. It can out  E fight the hell out of those planes. Likewise a 38s probably not going to dominate an E fight against a 109g10, but it sure can out turn it.

Where the 38 starts to dominate is when it's ability to combine these fighting styles come togeather, the transitions. If an E fighter trys to stay with a fast 38 the 38 will go up a bit and start slowing things down, then pop out it's supperior turn fighting abilities for domination. Likewise when a spitV bounces a 38 E states even out after two or three turns and the 38 can  extend to get the fight fast and gain a large E advantage in short order.

Domination by having one thing your plane does well gets quite boring, imo. Sure the zeke can turn in faster tighter circles then most other fighters, but that's all it can do. When you fight a zeke you know he's gonna turnfight.

[pellik]

Originally posted by SuperDud
Agreed, they could get in most anything and get the same results.

When you fly a  plane that's good at everything, you learn to do everything. I can E fight like mad in a 109, but if I get in trouble and have to turn I just don't have the option. Can a good 38 pilot fly the hell out  of anything? Yes. Will he get the same results? Only if he's lucky and keeps the situation geared toward one type of flying.