Author Topic: The Head-On (Read 2566 times)

LtPillur · « **Reply #30 on:** July 12, 2005, 01:12:44 PM »

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Originally posted by REP0MAN
Ok Gang, here is where we deviate slightly from the original post.

I like to fly the La7. I know alot of you guys hate the La7. Why? Beats me. Anyway, If I am screaming accross the deck, which is what La sticks like to do, and all the sudden, poof, there is a red icon closing fast. It's going to be a head on merge. What do you do to manuver away from the head on while trying to turn the tables against the HO and gain position to fire. Like in my first post, I usually invert and dive if I have altitude. Diving in an La7 has earned me the tree killing title. I've done a number of things to avoid the 50/50 odds and usually still get pinged a few times causing me to run for home as fast and low as possible.

This is exactly why people hate the La-7. people will HO, miss then run home with there tails between there legs. In that plane you only need the speed to stay alive. Try doing that in a P-40 and see how long you live. I have had them out fly me (speed wise) only to home to daddy to bring back friends. I would suggest that La-7 drivers fly something that can be outrun. Then you'll understand the feeling of the rest.
Peace and no malice
Pillur

REP0MAN · « **Reply #31 on:** July 12, 2005, 01:52:37 PM »

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Suggestion go to the DA and learn to duel. Your explaination tells me you may not be sure just how to go about merging with someone in a fight. Alternately, come on over to the TA and get with any trainer. They all know how to do and can teach it

I have a great squad that does training for me. I was merely trying to strike up the discussion as to see what others do in certain situations. I feel fairly comfortable in my ACM skills. Granted, not even close to the best, but decent. In my explaination I showed a time when I have been running on the deck. Maybe home? Maybe away from a fight to regroup and gain some alt. Whatever the case, I was on the deck and got a dot at my 12. My question was what does everyone else do. I like to invert and go low to come up into a yo-yo type situation.Much like Tex refered to at the end of his post, go under him, make him go into neg g to get the HO shot. Thanks for the training invite though.

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This is exactly why people hate the La-7. people will HO, miss then run home with there tails between there legs. In that plane you only need the speed to stay alive. Try doing that in a P-40 and see how long you live. I have had them out fly me (speed wise) only to home to daddy to bring back friends. I would suggest that La-7 drivers fly something that can be outrun. Then you'll understand the feeling of the rest

Here is something else that I dont understand. I would not HO someone and run unless I suffered damage that made it more to my enemys advantage for me to stay rather than flee for home. If I have a plane that for some reason or another is faster than yours, why is that a problem? As with the HO shot, I see alot of crying on 200 about La sticks. Sure I run if some one has a shot at my six. Thats because I know I am faster and can run. Thats why I fly it. After I get enough distance or you loose interest, I 180 and come back for more. But it is also why I kill alot of trees and earth, beacuse of the speed in a dive.

All in all, I like to have fun and spark conversation here so I can pick the brain of a veteran and somehow get better. Thanks for the input guys!

LtPillur · « **Reply #32 on:** July 12, 2005, 02:39:22 PM »

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Originally posted by REP0MAN

Here is something else that I dont understand. I would not HO someone and run unless I suffered damage that made it more to my enemys advantage for me to stay rather than flee for home. If I have a plane that for some reason or another is faster than yours, why is that a problem? As with the HO shot, I see alot of crying on 200 about La sticks. Sure I run if some one has a shot at my six. Thats because I know I am faster and can run. Thats why I fly it. After I get enough distance or you loose interest, I 180 and come back for more. But it is also why I kill alot of trees and earth, beacuse of the speed in a dive.

All in all, I like to have fun and spark conversation here so I can pick the brain of a veteran and somehow get better. Thanks for the input guys!

Repoman, Why not try to hang in and fight the fight? I am a terrible shot. But I love to fight. I ultimatley loose because of my lack of shooting skills, but dang the fight is fun. I think that is a problem with many (not all) La-7 drivers is they use the speed to run instead of using to there own advantage in a fight. Anyway to each his/her own. If you're having fun that's all that counts. I'm just not chasing another one of these planes.

Peace
Pillur

REP0MAN · « **Reply #33 on:** July 12, 2005, 03:35:38 PM »

Well said sir! It is all about having fun. It is truly to each his/her own. I do love to fight and also, like you, have terrible aim. Sometimes part of the fight for me is to dis-engage and start from scratch. Believe me I love the fight and you can ask Dr7 to agree because everytime he caps my panzer with one shot, I come back for another round because it's fun. And because one day I will get him!

HOST: Dr7 Shot You Down

ya, what else is new.

DamnedRen · « **Reply #34 on:** July 12, 2005, 04:52:38 PM »

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Originally posted by REP0MAN
I have a great squad that does training for me. I was merely trying to strike up the discussion as to see what others do in certain situations. I feel fairly comfortable in my ACM skills. Granted, not even close to the best, but decent. In my explaination I showed a time when I have been running on the deck. Maybe home? Maybe away from a fight to regroup and gain some alt. Whatever the case, I was on the deck and got a dot at my 12. My question was what does everyone else do. I like to invert and go low to come up into a yo-yo type situation.Much like Tex refered to at the end of his post, go under him, make him go into neg g to get the HO shot. Thanks for the training invite though.

I have to agree you have a great squad and I appologize if I implied, in any way, that it wasn't.

I merely responded to your thoughts on how you flying personally. All indications were you don't really have any idea on how to get angles or merge and I was trying to help you. Being able to turn fight effectively opens up a whole new game to many people. Most people think it's really fun to make a pass and run because that's all they can do. Imagine if you could stay in the fight and WIN!!!

This is not meant to be a criticism but if that's the point you're at then maybe the trainers can really help you, honest.

___________________
Ren

BTW · « **Reply #35 on:** July 12, 2005, 07:59:10 PM »

Hey Ren, on the in on Ren thing..

I knida figured what you were up to when I saw a dar bar over one. When you said you were hiding in the hanger , I was sure of it

Thanks, that was fun. Dang those chog wheel flaps

DieAz · « **Reply #36 on:** July 13, 2005, 01:03:05 AM »

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Originally posted by thrila
There is also a fair sized proportion of players that deem anything which isn't a rear quarter shot a HO.

and a couple that thinks a dead 6 shot is a HO.

IMO, nothing really wrong with a HO.
at any angle, if you have a shot, take it. I usually do.
doesn't matter to me which way or who is point where.
if I have a solution on the shot, rat-a-tat-tat.

< seems like in every thread, La7 gets brought up >

my thoughts on La7 is; it is truly a pity that so many, flies that fine plane in such disgraceful ways.
but it is their dime.

TexMurphy · « **Reply #37 on:** July 13, 2005, 02:59:25 AM »

Gunnery and the HO.

Really taking HO shots doesnt help your gunnery. Instead of practicing your gunnery you end up cheating your self. You get kills sure, but you arnt improving.

I know that every individual is different. So I cant demand everyone beeing 100% dedicated to improving their skills. But honestly the better you get at one thing the more fun it is.

There are a few things I recommend to improve your gunnery. Do theses in sequence and your gunnery will improve ALOT.

1. Rule of thumb for new pilots/pilots struggling with aim. Double the distance you lead the shot. I cant stress this enough. The most common miss in lead turn shots and deflection shots is behind the enemy. So double your lead

2. Watch films. Watch where the good pilots aim in different situaitons.

3. Turn off the tracers. If you have tracers on, take the shot and miss the enemy will start going evasive. Its much harder to hit a evasive target.

Tex

DamnedRen · « **Reply #38 on:** July 13, 2005, 05:37:31 AM »

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Originally posted by BTW
Hey Ren, on the in on Ren thing..

I knida figured what you were up to when I saw a dar bar over one. When you said you were hiding in the hanger , I was sure of it

Thanks, that was fun. Dang those chog wheel flaps

Hehe. I try and do that at least once a week. I normally get fast and make everyone work for a shot. I use it as a transition from slower speeds in the TA to the much faster envirnoment of the MA. While I may have 10 guys on me everyone gets a good workout shooting me down.

Glad you enjoyed it.

thrila · « **Reply #39 on:** July 13, 2005, 09:59:38 AM »

I thought my post would come back to haunt me one day vudak.

pellik · « **Reply #40 on:** July 13, 2005, 02:00:26 PM »

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Originally posted by TexMurphy
The best position you can have in a dogfight is high position on the enemies six. He cant touch you and you can waste him when ever you feel like it. This is what you wana achive.

lets look at a few scenarios.

Q: If you invert and go into a split S what manouvers give high positions on your six?

A: Any manouver that doesnt make you loose altitude and that reverses you in roughly the same time as the split S.

Easy if both planes are above corner speed, if both are below a split-S is the faster turn.

Q: When you do a split S what manouvers does your enemy need to make inorder for you to gain high six on him?

A: Ummm... cant think of any.

If he tries to follow your split-s and you become slower then him he will overshoot under you, leaving you high 6.

Q: If you after merge do a flat turn what manouvers does he need to make for you to gain high six on him?

A: Any low manouver like a split S, assuming you have a plane that turns relativly fast.

Wait, so you do a flat turn? He does the flat turn? In all of these situations relative E states and speed are what count, not the move.

Q: If you do a flat turn what manouvers does he need to do inorder for him to gain high six on you?

A: Any high manouver, high yoyo or perferably Immelman.

Again, dependent on how fast things are. Too slow and the high turn takes too long, the low con will be around and coming back up before you finish your turn.

Q: If you do a immelman what manouvers do you gain high six on?

A: Any lower manouvers. especially the flat turn (most common manouver in MA). The split S you end up above but quite far away from.

If he does a split-S enough seperation may be gained that instead of high 6 you're looking at HO.

Q:If you do a immelman what manouver does he need to do to get high six on you?

A: He can only do a immelman to equalize the situatin. He cant gain high six on you in a single manouver.

Further its very good to know that a Immelman reverses you (180 degrees) faster then the flat turn.

The Immelman stores energy. You gain alt and hence convert speed into altitude.

The flat turn burns energy as it doesnt generate speed or altitude. Biggest E burner you can do.

The Split S does convert altitude into speed but it does still burn E since it pulls alot of G.

There are many two-part moves that can beat an immel pretty bad. I like to do a flat turn and then a high yoyo or immel. I'm slower from the flat turn and above him after the immel. Hard to shake high 6 if he is slower then you. The immel is useful, but on it's own it's quite limited if your opponent uses E states right.

Q: So what opening move is the most likely to generate a gunsolution?

A: Immelman.

Not if your opponent is confident. The pitchback is much safer against good pilots.

Q: How do you merge to make a immelman and avoid a HO?

A: You go UNDER your enemy. Get under his nose and he has to pull negative G to get his guns on you. By going under him you also gain vertical spearation and hence a better position in a "Immel fight" if he should follow you up high.

Any seperation -> lead turn will work. What really counts is that you control the E states to your advantage from the opening move.

People don't bite on verticle sepration like they used to. Most people will extend out as soon as they see how screwed they are. Ultimately you lose more E diving and zooming up then he does if he just extends. Another good move is to get slower then him and make like you're going to meet him HO, then at 600 or so when he starts shooting just do your verticle move. If your timing is right he wont be able to get his nose up and will go right under you, letting you saddle up for high 6 w/o having to dive first to do it.

Tex

A lot of people seem to have this problem when learning advanced ACM. Moves like these are just more fluid then many people would like. If you start drawing up these general rules you'll start judging the fight on only one or two factors, when really there are many more things to consider. As you can see by my comments, relative E states as well as the speed of the fight have a dramatic impact on each of your choices.

-p.

Schutt · « **Reply #41 on:** July 13, 2005, 02:40:11 PM »

What is a pitchback?

Iceman24 · « **Reply #42 on:** July 13, 2005, 03:02:04 PM »

I believe a pitchback is cross between a flat turn and an immel right pellik ? So on your immel you are not goint straight up and over but more of a 45 degree . I have heard of another term for it, not a pitchback but I think they are the same. Am I correct Pellik ?

TexMurphy · « **Reply #43 on:** July 13, 2005, 03:27:57 PM »

pellik

Your comments are totally right. But my Q&As where ment to keep it as simple as possible to show how easy it is to increase your odds from 50-50 (HO) to 70-30 (Opening move Immelman).

Seriously to beat 60-70% of the MA in a 1v1ish siutation just avoiding the HO and doing a Immelman is enough.

To go better then that you need to gain alot more understanding of E, how to combine manouvers, angles and gunnery.

Tex.

pellik · « **Reply #44 on:** July 13, 2005, 05:28:29 PM »

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Originally posted by Iceman24
I believe a pitchback is cross between a flat turn and an immel right pellik ? So on your immel you are not goint straight up and over but more of a 45 degree . I have heard of another term for it, not a pitchback but I think they are the same. Am I correct Pellik ?

Yeah.