Author Topic: Discovery orbiter  (Read 2383 times)

Offline Leslie

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2212
Discovery orbiter
« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2005, 03:36:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
When it's time to retire them, boost the shuttles to high orbit and leave 'em with the space station. Handy-dandy mars or moon trans orbital exploration vehicles.



Shuttles can't go to the moon from Earth.  Not designed for it.  

Moon shuttles would be ungainly looking things without wings, ugly compared to the space shuttle design.  They would require no areodynamic design at all.  Probably could look like a couple very large beer cans joined together on top of a (sturdy) card table (with rocket nozzles sticking out the bottom.)

A rocket with enough power to boost a Mars mission as launched in the traditional way from terra firma, would have to be as big as the Empire State Bldg.  It would need to be built in space and it would have to be about that big either way if launched from orbit.  Maybe using traditional rockets is the way to do it.  Would take a lot of rockets and personel.

Sounds impossible and probably is.  When Werner von Braun told President Kennedy  NASA could go to the moon and back, the engineers' jaws dropped.  They were put on the spot big time.  They didn't think it was possible at the time, but von Braun proved them wrong.  I'm afraid without men of vision like von Braun leading the way, it may not be done again.





Les

Offline Gh0stFT

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1736
Discovery orbiter
« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2005, 05:51:05 AM »
man i hope all the astronauts come back safe home, i really dont
understand all this problems with the shuttle this days. They where
flying this machine for years without any doubt and today
everything changed into a surviving question :confused:
The statement below is true.
The statement above is false.

Offline Leslie

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2212
Discovery orbiter
« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2005, 06:55:15 AM »
They'll make it back OK.  It's just that the shuttle design never was meant to last forever.  It was a temporary and highly advanced solution to the needs at the time.

The idea is good - reusable main engines, but there are so many other things involved, it is too complex to be a long term shuttle access to space.

Take the idea of tiles.  Numerous tiles have fallen off the shuttle before and it made it back.  They've fallen off from the very beginning.   Leading wing edge tiles are the most important.  If they're in place, you're good to go.  I wouldn't worry about it unless that was the case.  I think those tiles on the bottom are positioned so they deflect heat even if a few are missing.  Some of those tiles are redundant tiles (they have tiles underneath them.)






Les

Offline FalconSix

  • Parolee
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 246
Discovery orbiter
« Reply #48 on: August 01, 2005, 07:49:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by FalconSix
See Rule #5


Hey! I wasn't flaming anyone or "posting to annoy". :(

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
Discovery orbiter
« Reply #49 on: August 01, 2005, 10:55:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Leslie
Shuttles can't go to the moon from Earth.  Not designed for it.  

Moon shuttles would be ungainly looking things without wings, ugly compared to the space shuttle design.  They would require no areodynamic design at all.  Probably could look like a couple very large beer cans joined together on top of a (sturdy) card table (with rocket nozzles sticking out the bottom.)

A rocket with enough power to boost a Mars mission as launched in the traditional way from terra firma, would have to be as big as the Empire State Bldg.  It would need to be built in space and it would have to be about that big either way if launched from orbit.  Maybe using traditional rockets is the way to do it.  Would take a lot of rockets and personel.

Sounds impossible and probably is.  When Werner von Braun told President Kennedy  NASA could go to the moon and back, the engineers' jaws dropped.  They were put on the spot big time.  They didn't think it was possible at the time, but von Braun proved them wrong.  I'm afraid without men of vision like von Braun leading the way, it may not be done again.

Les


Enh? Now yer thinking like a flatlander. The shuttle is mans first true spaceship. It's a BIG mutha, It's got an OMS system, and it's cargo bay can be pressurised. If it's already in orbit docked at the station materials, supplies and fuel can be boosted to it, and it can be modified right in orbit for trans lunar and trans mars trucking jobs. A martian lander or lunar lander module could easily be either attached or toted in the cargo bay. They can also be launched 'light' and keep the big btank, tote them up to the station. The tanks can be refuled there or used for any number of things including *gasp* tanks for the fuel needed for the mars missions.

It was desigined as a space truck.... why not use it?
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline FalconSix

  • Parolee
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 246
Discovery orbiter
« Reply #50 on: August 01, 2005, 11:21:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
It was desigined as a space truck.... why not use it?


They keep falling apart with people in them. We need something better. The shuttle was really designed before the technology was mature enough, even simple rocket capsules are safer and cheaper as the russians and french have shown us.

And I have to disagree with you on the shuttle being a space ship. It's only a shuttle orbiter as its name suggests. The first and so far only manned spaceship is the Apollo rocket. It's the only manned craft ever to travel beyond low earth orbit.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2005, 11:25:25 AM by FalconSix »

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Discovery orbiter
« Reply #51 on: August 01, 2005, 11:50:54 AM »
Yeah, some serious problems with the idea of using the shuttle to go to the moon/mars.

1. The SSME is not designed to be restarted.  Getting a big turbopump like that going in space is a big challenge.
2. Assuming you take care of #1, you need to add ullage motors to the Shuttle/ET stack to get the fuel pushed down against the feeds until SSME thrust is high enough.  You might be able to use the OMS for this, but you're going to have a real problem keeping the off-center thrust from putting the stack into a forward pitch roll.
3. There are no fuel carriers in the inventory for bringing liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen in sufficient quantity up to refuel the ET enough to provide the impulse needed to go to the moon.  You would need to create a new rocket designed to carry a heavy and bulky payload of fuel up (LH^2 takes up a LOT of space for given mass).
4. Assuming 1-3 is fixed, now you need a way to transfer fuel/oxidizer to the ET.  There's no gravity, so you can't just pump it, and you'd need a system that wouldn't weigh too much or else you can't carry it up.  Let's say that you dock with the ET stack and set up a slow spin so you use gravity to force the fuel/O2 down to the intake holes, and that somehow you've managed to create a method for pumping it from one tank to another.  Better yet, assume that instead of taking the ET up to orbit, your fuel carrier is its own tank with the same locking points that can attach to the SSME right where the ET was, that way you don't have to do a complicated refueling.
5. Which brings us to another problem, getting the two to dock in orbit.  There's no automation, not docking systems that are designed to do this.  You would need to jack the two together and hope that someone can get between the OV and the tank to hook up the attachment points.  I've seen that space, it's not very big, but it has to be hooked up strong because the SSMEs can't be throttled down very far, so it has to hold against many G's of thrust.
6. Assuming 1-5 is magically taken care of, now you have a small cabin attached to about 100 tons of structure that's designed to handle re-entry to the earth's atmosphere.  You're dragging along tons of excess mass in the form of wings, heat shields, vertical stabilizers, landing gear, etc.  For every kilo of mass you carry, you need like 10 kilos of fuel.  So we're talking multiple launches of fuel tanks, each atop multi-hundred million dollar EELVs.  The cost, at this point, it passing $5 billion.
7. Don't forget your martian lander.  You can't just pull a lunar lander out of the Smithsonian, hook up a laptop to the control system and top off the tanks.  You need a completely new vehicle.  Since we're not doing Zubrin's Mars Direct, there's no fuel factory waiting for us on Mars, so the lander has to be able to carry enough fuel to launch back to orbit.  One third earth gravity and lower air pressure, sure, but still, a lot of fuel.
8. Assume that 1-7 have magically been solved.  You now have an environmental system on the shuttle that was designed for missions of up to a week, maybe as much as three weeks with the extended stay module.  The shuttle uses fuel cells that convert liquid oxygen to power and water, so you need enough O2 go juice to last the whole trip.  If you don't, then you're betting that your APUs and fuel cells will fire up again after months of cold soak.  Hope you bought a lotto ticket, because if you live to check it, it's gotta be a winner.
9. Assuming 1-8 have resolved themselves.  You need a method to aerobrake at Mars while holding onto your fuel tank.  After all, you need to come back to Earth, right?  So your fuel tank cluster now needs to have heat shielding.  

I could keep going, but I have to get back to work.

PS, the cargo bay cannot be pressurized.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
Discovery orbiter
« Reply #52 on: August 01, 2005, 11:53:37 AM »
FalconSix, yer missing the point.

instead of leaving them in museums, leave them in space. Use them there.

they are 'trucks'. use 'em as such for point to point (in space) delivery of men and materials.

And apollo was not a true 'spaceship'. just a complicated stack of modules chucked into orbit, only one of which returned via parachute.

Using the shuttles permanantly based in orbit to haul modules around between lunar and mars orbits should be a bit more efficient than an apollo style stack it all on one rocket system.. the mission can be staged from the space station.. which was why we wanted a space station to begin with.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2005, 12:06:11 PM by Hangtime »
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
Discovery orbiter
« Reply #53 on: August 01, 2005, 12:02:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Yeah, some serious problems with the idea of using the shuttle to go to the moon/mars.

1. The SSME is not designed to be restarted.  Getting a big turbopump like that going in space is a big challenge.
2. Assuming you take care of #1, you need to add ullage motors to the Shuttle/ET stack to get the fuel pushed down against the feeds until SSME thrust is high enough.  You might be able to use the OMS for this, but you're going to have a real problem keeping the off-center thrust from putting the stack into a forward pitch roll.
3. There are no fuel carriers in the inventory for bringing liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen in sufficient quantity up to refuel the ET enough to provide the impulse needed to go to the moon.  You would need to create a new rocket designed to carry a heavy and bulky payload of fuel up (LH^2 takes up a LOT of space for given mass).
4. Assuming 1-3 is fixed, now you need a way to transfer fuel/oxidizer to the ET.  There's no gravity, so you can't just pump it, and you'd need a system that wouldn't weigh too much or else you can't carry it up.  Let's say that you dock with the ET stack and set up a slow spin so you use gravity to force the fuel/O2 down to the intake holes, and that somehow you've managed to create a method for pumping it from one tank to another.  Better yet, assume that instead of taking the ET up to orbit, your fuel carrier is its own tank with the same locking points that can attach to the SSME right where the ET was, that way you don't have to do a complicated refueling.
5. Which brings us to another problem, getting the two to dock in orbit.  There's no automation, not docking systems that are designed to do this.  You would need to jack the two together and hope that someone can get between the OV and the tank to hook up the attachment points.  I've seen that space, it's not very big, but it has to be hooked up strong because the SSMEs can't be throttled down very far, so it has to hold against many G's of thrust.
6. Assuming 1-5 is magically taken care of, now you have a small cabin attached to about 100 tons of structure that's designed to handle re-entry to the earth's atmosphere.  You're dragging along tons of excess mass in the form of wings, heat shields, vertical stabilizers, landing gear, etc.  For every kilo of mass you carry, you need like 10 kilos of fuel.  So we're talking multiple launches of fuel tanks, each atop multi-hundred million dollar EELVs.  The cost, at this point, it passing $5 billion.
7. Don't forget your martian lander.  You can't just pull a lunar lander out of the Smithsonian, hook up a laptop to the control system and top off the tanks.  You need a completely new vehicle.  Since we're not doing Zubrin's Mars Direct, there's no fuel factory waiting for us on Mars, so the lander has to be able to carry enough fuel to launch back to orbit.  One third earth gravity and lower air pressure, sure, but still, a lot of fuel.
8. Assume that 1-7 have magically been solved.  You now have an environmental system on the shuttle that was designed for missions of up to a week, maybe as much as three weeks with the extended stay module.  The shuttle uses fuel cells that convert liquid oxygen to power and water, so you need enough O2 go juice to last the whole trip.  If you don't, then you're betting that your APUs and fuel cells will fire up again after months of cold soak.  Hope you bought a lotto ticket, because if you live to check it, it's gotta be a winner.
9. Assuming 1-8 have resolved themselves.  You need a method to aerobrake at Mars while holding onto your fuel tank.  After all, you need to come back to Earth, right?  So your fuel tank cluster now needs to have heat shielding.  

I could keep going, but I have to get back to work.

PS, the cargo bay cannot be pressurized.


Thanks Chair.. see; real science.. not opinion.

All of the things you note would have to be solved for a Mars Mission staged from orbit to begin with. Most retrofit work on the shuttles could be done here before their final boost to orbit. (gear, wing rework for tankage, tiles, tankage and pump upgrades, cargo bay refit, etc.)

I'd think that if nothing else; left alone, they'd still be better parked with the station as 'lifeboats' than they would be as museum pieces// Enterprise is a musem piece already.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Discovery orbiter
« Reply #54 on: August 01, 2005, 12:18:18 PM »
It would be much much much much cheaper to take a russian station service module and retrofit it for Mars.  One of these is the central module of the ISS (and was for Mir as well) and contains life support, more living space then the shuttle, and is equipped for long duration stays.  Unlike the shuttle, it is solar powered.  People have lived in them for years at a time.  They are relatively cheap.

The ISS one is named 'Zvezda', if it helps with lookups on the internet.  Here's a link: http://www.russianspaceweb.com/iss_sm.html

Not only is it cheaper, but it's safer too.  The design is more modern, is built for long duration spaceflight, and more.

Turning the shuttle into a mars ship is like turning a car into a bicycle.  Yes, you have two wheels...  and you have some metal and a steering wheel...  but in the end, you either end up with a very bad bicycle or, if you're smart, you just go buy a huffy.  It's cheaper, safer, and less likely to dump your dessicated remains into the sun.

As for using a shuttle as a lifeboat, the control surfaces are hydraulic.  They need the APUs to run to keep the hydraulic pumps active.  Studies have shown that reactivating the APUs after more then a a month would be very tricky, and that at that point, the cold soak to the spaceframe would mean that things like landing gear doors would be unlikely to function, not to mention the rubber tires would not survive contact.  Because of the light weight structure of shuttle (relative to an airliner), a belly landing has been determined to be non-survivable.

Edit: Forgot to rebut lifeboat idea.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2005, 12:21:17 PM by Chairboy »
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Wolfala

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4875
Discovery orbiter
« Reply #55 on: August 01, 2005, 12:48:38 PM »
Holdup, the Cargo Bay on the STS can be pressurized? Where did you read this and what is the source?

Wolf


the best cure for "wife ack" is to deploy chaff:    $...$$....$....$$$.....$ .....$$$.....$ ....$$

Offline FalconSix

  • Parolee
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 246
Discovery orbiter
« Reply #56 on: August 01, 2005, 12:49:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
FalconSix, yer missing the point.

instead of leaving them in museums, leave them in space. Use them there.

they are 'trucks'. use 'em as such for point to point (in space) delivery of men and materials.

And apollo was not a true 'spaceship'. just a complicated stack of modules chucked into orbit, only one of which returned via parachute.

Using the shuttles permanantly based in orbit to haul modules around between lunar and mars orbits should be a bit more efficient than an apollo style stack it all on one rocket system.. the mission can be staged from the space station.. which was why we wanted a space station to begin with.


You would have to put better engines into it first. The ones on it now are running at 110% and needs an overhaul every time they're used. Once the shuttle is in orbit it IS a pile of junk just waiting to fall back to earth in a controlled dive and needs a LOT of TLC to get back on the launchpad.

Just servicing them in orbit for whatever you suggest them doing would be prohibitingly expensive and cost far more than a custom built spacecraft. Building spacecraft that only need to operate in space is done all the time. They're called satellites and probes. Easy to build (compared to a shuttle), easy to get up in space (without risking lives) and cheap (compared to the shuttle).

Chairboy got it.

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Discovery orbiter
« Reply #57 on: August 01, 2005, 12:50:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wolfala
Holdup, the Cargo Bay on the STS can be pressurized? Where did you read this and what is the source?

Wolf
He is mistaken, it cannot be pressurized.  In fact, there are a series of vent holes along the length to allow for an even depressurization as it ascends because the loads of pressurization would damage the mechanism.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
Discovery orbiter
« Reply #58 on: August 01, 2005, 12:51:36 PM »
I recall reading somewhere that they had a module for it... but, I coulda just pulled it outta my ass. :)
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Discovery orbiter
« Reply #59 on: August 01, 2005, 12:52:45 PM »
You may be thinking of the Spacelab module.  It's a small room with a pressurized tunnel that sits in the cargo bay for some extra racks of experiments.  It's has about as much room as a mini-van.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis