Spoke to Pyro re Spits

[Furball]

Originally posted by Lye-El
Which, of course, means more easy kills for the already good pilots. If HTC would just restrict all the lower rank pilots to the Mark I, AH would be paradise....for some.

here you are, sir, your keys to your very own Mk. I Spitfire!!

[Kev367th]

Actually Karnak I would happier with that lineup that the proposed one.

IXe/XVIe same thing, could be tagged as either. Give the option we currently have for 50s or 303s as the 'e' wing did and you have best of both worlds. Clipped/unclipped, either I'm easy.

Its not exactly keep it as it is, every plane changes apart from the current Spit V.

[Karnak]

That is my feeling too Dan.  Even at +18lbs, it still keeps the wings and guns in their correct years.  I'd like the +25lbs even if it were lightly perked, but I'll happily accept whatever Pyro determines is the way to go.  I am just a bit giddy looking at that list and your profiles.

Spitfire Mk Ia
Spitfire Mk Vb
Spitfire F.Mk IX
Spitfire LF.Mk VIII
Seafire L.Mk III
Spitfire LF.Mk XVIe
Spitfire F.Mk XIV


If we get that list in AH, regardless of boosts, I'll be thrilled.  That just looks so good to me.


Kev,

And you abandon 1941 and 1943.  You're playing sour grapes now.

[Kev367th]

Not abandoning, as has been pointed out to me, it shouldn't be done by years.

I'm surprised you have given up so easily.

Take a 1943 LF IX slap and 'e' wing wing and WOW you have a LF MkXVI without ANY of the performance enhancements that came with a true 1944 Spit XVI

Rather keep the nice Spit V we have, and just see the other planes made more accurate.

Make you a bet now - no 25lbs Spit = no Mk VIII, no need for it, the Mk VIII was also to be standin for the 1943 LF IX.

As the proposed Spit XVI is a 1943 LF IX with an 'e' wing, all you have to do is ensure that the 50 cal and some ord options arent used and viola a 1943 Spit LF IX.
Bye Bye Spit VIII.

[Karnak]

I haven't given up at all.  I have stated my preference, to have the +25lbs XVI,  and my recognition that it is Pyro's choice.

I have also explained, based on my experiences in AH, why I do agree with those concerned about the potential of the +25lbs XVI.

As I have already stated I think that a small perk price is preferable to having it at +18lbs, but having it and the others is vastly better than not.

You know as well as I do that what you suggest will not work as there is no way to prevent the use of guns and ordnance in setups earlier than 1944.  Thus you leave 1943 and 1941 performance levels bare, and in the case of the Spit years do work as a pretty good guage.

Without the Spit VIII Pyro will not ever have the option of boosting the IX/XVI to +25lbs without opening that huge hole again.

I really don't understand your problem with having it perked.  You would really rather not have it at all, and lose the Mk VIII, and lose the ability to do 1941 and 1943 scenarios than to have it lightly perked?  Why?  To me that is just a tantrum reaction.

[Karnak]

Even with both at +18lbs boost the Spit VIII and XVI would be distinct:

Spit VIII: Full span wings, two 20mm and four .303s, greater interal tankage, single hard point.

Spit XVI: Clipped wings, two 20mm and two .50s, three hard points.

They'd both serve their purpose.  I'd love the +25lbs on the XVI to differentiate them even more, but I'll take what I can get.

[Kev367th]

yes they do Karnak, but as Wotan has so ably pointed out, year should not be the only reason for inclusion/exclusion of a certain ride.

The list with the current Spit V (posted above) would be more than adequate for the MA, would just require a little fudging around for scenarios, but we do that all the time anyway.

Hell perk them all, if you can perk what would appear to be the 11th fastest plane in the set anything is open to it. (Seafire III anyone?)

That will be another fudge, Seafire L III operated off land bases, in AH it will be CV only, because it will be the only way to limit it's use.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Kev367th
The list with the current Spit V (posted above) would be more than adequate for the MA, would just require a little fudging around for scenarios, but we do that all the time anyway.

The whole idea is to do away with fudging anything significant.  You can't put a Spitfire LF.Mk IXe/XVIe into a 1943 setup and expect people to not use the .50s, three bombs or rockets.  The Vc does not work for 1941 setups as it is much to potent.

The whole idea is to fix that and with your list they might as well not change anything as it'd be much the same.  You're just chaging where one of the holes is.

I understand you are frusterated about Spitfires, perks and ENY values.  I have posted similar things in the past.  But I think you need to step back and take a few deep breaths and think about what the lineup we hope to get allows, both in terms of possible future boost increases and in terms of ENY values.  Having that variety would help ensure that at least the Spit F.IX and Spit Vb would be available whereas if nothing is changed, or your new list is used, we end up in the same boat with only the Mk I being available to people like Selector.

Recognize that the Spitfire is an awesome brawler for MA style combat and take it as a comliment to your favorite fighter.  Then look at the options that the  seven Spit list gives us and gives HTC.  It is tremendous.

[Squire]

Gee, we were doing well there guys maybe cool down the temperature.

Ok, so the 109G-14 would not be a match, interesting graphs appreciate the info.

Again, endless discussion about "perking" does nothing except muddy the waters on the point of the conversation.

As an entire WW2 history thread on the relevance of the Spit, Im going to save that for another day too. However, I do think that the 2nd Tac AF did a lot of work 44-45, and the Spit varients and Typhoon did the lion's share of the work.

Any 1943-44 Merlin 66 Spit will be a vast improvement on the F.IX we currently have, and MUCH more representative of the type. So, the LF IXc or LF VIIIc should be given the highest priority. Thats 1st. Anything after that is gravy, imho.

I do hope a XVIe or IXe fighter-bombers are added to give the late 44-45 versions rounded out, but remember the Typhoon, Mustang, and Tempest are also in the RAF lineup, as well as the Spit XIV.

Spit XIV I would like to see as a standard wing version, E wing. Normal canopy (Spit XIVe).

[Kev367th]

Karnak - So it's OK to have a historical matchup in scenarios with relatively equal planes up to 1943, but 1944 is a no,no?

ENY - I got over it.
Perk - Nice to see the Spit 14 down, crazy to perk a Merlin spit.

Anyone thought about this-
Seafire L III - Merlin 55M @ 1585HP and 18lbs, and people complain about our current V at 16lbs.
That thing will be a menace, our current Spit V plus an extra 2lb boost, drop tanks and ord carrying capability (2k total?).
Will be the pick of the bunch.
Forget CV attacks using F4U, F6F etc anymore, Seafire III will rule that aspect of the game.
NO - It shouldn't be perked, the day a Seafire is perked will be one sad day for AH2.
Assuming it should be available on land (no reason it sohuldn't) will prob split my time between that and the Tiffy.

[Karnak]

Kev,

The MA is not for historical matchups so being perked in there doesn't matter that much.  Besides, that is for the future only as it will be +18 initially unless Pyro changes his mind.

As to the Seafire, I looked it up in my books last night and it didn't look too good.  351mph max speed, 320ish on the deck.  I doubt it could carry 2,000lbs of ord.  I've never heard of a Spitfire/Seafire exceeding 1,000lbs.


We'll see how it works out.  Let's just stick with the list Pyro is thinking of.  It covers a lot of bases and leaves future changes open.

[Kev367th]

Seafire III still uses the same motor as our current much complained about Spit Vc.
Only diff is it has an extra 2lbs of boost, can carry ord (maybe 1k thats why I put the ?, couldnt remember) and unlike our current Spit V carries drop tanks.
One of big limitations of the current Spit V is its range, well thats no more.
Same ammo load out also, once people discover them, i expect to see the current Spit V guys migrate across.

[1K3]

Originally posted by Karnak

As to the Seafire L III, I looked it up in my books last night and it didn't look too good.  351mph max speed, 320ish on the deck.  I doubt it could carry 2,000lbs of ord.  I've never heard of a Spitfire/Seafire exceeding 1,000lbs.
 

timeout

isnt that the seafire variant that fought against the A6M5s in the last last last days of WWIII?

looks like a good match-up. let the TnB begin!;)

[Karnak]

Kev,

It is a bit heavier and wings a little weaker too.

I think the flight model will need to be looked at a bit as the charts I've seen don't match the numbers on the current Mk V.

1K3,

Yes, the final fighter vs fighter fight of WWII was A6M5s vs Seafire L.Mk IIIs.  I seem to recall the Seafires won, 8 to 2 or some such.

[Kev367th]

Yes, its a hell of a machine.
Like I said almost identical to our Spit V, but with droptanks, ord and an extra 2lbs boost, 4 bladed prop, same ammo loadout.
Anything but the 55M would be a fudge
Although originally fitted with a Merlin 50 this lasted a very short period, in fact only the initial batch were supplied with Merlin 50s. All subsequent batches and the orignal batch were then fitted with low alt 55M's.
Biggest thing will be the drop tanks, current Spit V's are a royal pain, with droptanks Seafires could become a nightmare.
Extra weight wont matter, load it 75% fuel, take DT's. Just before you start combat ditch the DTs.

Yeah Karnak something along those line 8-2, not bad for almost irrelevent aircraft, the final kills of WW2.

Can't find data for a Merlin 55M at 18lbs

Maybe hazard a guess, a Merlin 50 @16lbs at 10500ft gives it 351 mph.
So go from a Merlin 50 1470HP at 16lbs to a Merlin 55M 1585HP at 18lbs.