Who is to blame?

[2bighorn]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
Several have been in counseling for weeks now because they were so traumatized by the outcome of this event.  

Heatwave affecting you?

SWAT does NOT stand for 'Sissy Women And Toddlers'. Poor guys, we need to collect some $$ so they can afford better shrinks...

1. First what SWAT guys learn is: NOBODY DIES

2. Girl died by SHOTGUN wound! HELLO, you don't play with shotgun when hostages are around. Where were the snipers?

3. Everybody taking hostages is a scum, that doesn't mean you can kill hostages cause the guy was a (insert few nasties).

4. SWAT screwed up this one. They could disable the guy (killing him or whatever) without killing the baby.

5. If SWAT can't handle stuff like that, then we don't need SWAT. Just send regular cops...

6. Lazs was right. Good shooter (sniper) could disable (kill) the guy without hurting innocent.

7. Mane was right. They could pull back and wait/reorganize/whatever

8. CrowMAW was right.

9. Sandman, yes, that's exactly what they should do. Negotiate, days if needed (they are paid for it), until right opportunity is there. BAM, bullet right between the eyes - no others hurt.

[Seagoon]

Hi 2big,

Originally posted by 2bighorn
Heatwave affecting you?
2. Girl died by SHOTGUN wound! HELLO, you don't play with shotgun when hostages are around. Where were the snipers?

The original CNN story stated "Suzie Marie Lopez died as a result of a high-velocity rifle wound to her head fired from a distance, a medical examination found"

How did you come to the conclusion that a shotgun was used?

From what I have read, the father ultimately murdered his daughter. It was not a bullet from his gun that killed her, but from a moral standpoint, it just as well might have been. He failed to fulfill all of the basic responsibilities parents have to their children and then directly placed her life in mortal danger by provoking a "suicide by cop" confrontation.

Could the police have done things differently? Perhaps, but to tell the truth, I don't know. Many hostage standoffs end in a murder/suicide scenario even when the cops do adopt a "go slow" policy. This is especially common when the perp is seriously emotionally distraught or under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol.

In the case of a man actually opening fire on police officers first, it is easy for us to say "you should not have returned fire" but when 9mm rounds fired by a criminal are coming your way, your paramount duty is to take whatever lawful steps are necessary to preserve your own life. The duty of police officers cannot be held to be "Be willing to die rather than returning fire."

- SEAGOON

[Sandman]

Originally posted by 2bighorn
9. Sandman, yes, that's exactly what they should do. Negotiate, days if needed (they are paid for it), until right opportunity is there. BAM, bullet right between the eyes - no others hurt.

Bull****. Police don't negotiate with people that are shooting at them. They shoot back... and rightly so.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by 2bighorn
Heatwave affecting you?

SWAT does NOT stand for 'Sissy Women And Toddlers'. Poor guys, we need to collect some $$ so they can afford better shrinks...

1. First what SWAT guys learn is: NOBODY DIES

2. Girl died by SHOTGUN wound! HELLO, you don't play with shotgun when hostages are around. Where were the snipers?

3. Everybody taking hostages is a scum, that doesn't mean you can kill hostages cause the guy was a (insert few nasties).

4. SWAT screwed up this one. They could disable the guy (killing him or whatever) without killing the baby.

5. If SWAT can't handle stuff like that, then we don't need SWAT. Just send regular cops...

6. Lazs was right. Good shooter (sniper) could disable (kill) the guy without hurting innocent.

7. Mane was right. They could pull back and wait/reorganize/whatever

8. CrowMAW was right.

9. Sandman, yes, that's exactly what they should do. Negotiate, days if needed (they are paid for it), until right opportunity is there. BAM, bullet right between the eyes - no others hurt.

The original CNN story stated "Suzie Marie Lopez died as a result of a high-velocity rifle wound to her head fired from a distance, a medical examination found"

yea like I said the police guys including SWAT were upset by the fact that the girl died.

Maybe you should READ before posting cause you obviously havnt been reading anything in this thread.  

They were under negotiations for 2+ hours with the guy trying to work things out when he came out blazing with a 19 month old as a human shield.  They took a shot and missed.

The police are not the ones to blame here but if you want to feel sorry for a coked up illegal alien holding a little girl as a human shield be my guest.

[nirvana]

While I agree that it is solely the Fathers and more or less the mother's fault as well, where was the less-then-lethal flashbang, teargas, etc?  If he was in a building I would think they could get that stuff going.  It's a hard situtaion, would he have killed his daughter as well if things came down to it? Maybe.  Accidents happen, and I would be proud of any officer that tried to disarm this guy.  If the sniper was shooting from the guys front, it was a bad spot to snipe from in my opinion.  Take a side shot.  It's really sad that this guy could come back illegally like many others do everyday.  Whats even worse is that he had his own car lot.


Just my opinion.

[Gunslinger]

to make matters worse after this all took place several mexican news stations to include Telemundo reported that the guy was "unarmed"

talk about sturring the pot.

[2bighorn]

Seagoon
The duty of police officers cannot be held to be "Be willing to die rather than returning fire."

Ahhh yeah police... Sorry, I was thinking what average Joe would do to save the girl, or fireman perhaps, or next door neighbor, or even evangelical pastor who's calling for prayers for the persecuted church. No, sorry, I don't wanna talk who was responsible moraly...

LAPD SWAT is trained for hostage rescue since mid 80s. Guys were sent to Europe to learn from British, French and Germans.

Their excellent record shows they are indeed capable of doing just that.

Unluckily for the little girl, the most experienced SWAT vets were replaced by hotshots who couldn't take a cover and hold the fire. But they are forgiven...

Originally posted by Gunslinger
The police are not the ones to blame here but if you want to feel sorry for a coked up illegal alien holding a little girl as a human shield be my guest.

I feel sorry for the innocent child, which you obviously don't give a crap about, instead you are turning the case into political debate about illegal aliens. The best if every citizen gets barcode tatoo on forehead, so that when you join border militia, you'll know whom to shoot.
C'mon Gunslinger, we are talking about children here. You do have kids, right?

Originally posted by Sandman
and rightly so

Yeah, and next time when some madman takes school bus hostage, blow it up with RPG if he dares to point gun at officers and world will be beautiful again.

Can't really discuss value of human life with those who are wasting the best years of it in AH O'Club.

Out!

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by 2bighorn
Can't really discuss value of human life with those who are wasting the best years of it in AH O'Club.

Out!

Nice debating form.

We love you. Really. Please don't go drown yourself in the toilet.

I just cleaned it.

Why not just call the cops and then outside & shoot yerself in the head instead?

This way we can blame your death on the cops too.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by 2bighorn

 I feel sorry for the innocent child, which you obviously don't give a crap about, instead you are turning the case into political debate about illegal aliens. The best if every citizen gets barcode tatoo on forehead, so that when you join border militia, you'll know whom to shoot.
C'mon Gunslinger, we are talking about children here. You do have kids, right?

Out!

Yes I do have kids, I also feel terrible for the family.  But, I live in the area and have to hear about this and it infuriates me that the community and others blame the police first.  In addition I'd never use my son as a human shield.  

I don't think I'm being political about the illegal thing but facts are facts this would have never happend if this guy was deported a second time and our borders were more secure then they are.

Everyone can arm chair quaterback this all they want but they werent there.  Like I said before these police tried to get the guy out peacfully and it went bad.  As much as we want it we cannot expect perfection from these guys all the time.  They are trained well and put there lives on the line for our safety every single day.

I've seen the news were these minority communitys are blaming the police and even news reports saying the guy was un-armed and it pisses me off.

The BLAME clearly goes to the scum not the cops.  They were doing their job and it went wrong.

[Sandman]

These cops have wives, kids, families.

They aren't going to jeapordize the welfare of their own one bit more than necessary.

In the big scheme of things, their lives are more important than the life of a mere child. They have responsibilities to uphold.

[2bighorn]

Well, Sandman, next time you go over Goler or somewhere else, ditch xterra club, pickup Gunslinger, call me, and I'll get you guys to someplace nice.
While in my beloved desert, city folk is more alien to me than salamanderly pear to salad, but I should be nice to all guests.

It is more likely we'll reach common ground around campfire after drink or two then here on the message board.

Cyas in the desert.

PS
Gunslinger, the rain which doesn't reach the ground is called Virga here...

[Xargos]

Mine the border between Mexico and the US, problemS solved.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by Sandman
These cops have wives, kids, families.

They aren't going to jeapordize the welfare of their own one bit more than necessary.

In the big scheme of things, their lives are more important than the life of a mere child. They have responsibilities to uphold.

Good point sandy,

It's kinda like what they teach life guards.  You save yourself before you save the victom.  If something happens to you than the victom is screwed reguardless.  We don't pay these guys to die we pay them to protect and serve.  

2bighorn,

just what desert we talkin bout?  and why yas call it viagra?  
 
 

[lazs2]

It's a fine line..  I don't believe that the government should ever endanger children no matter who started it... Perect cases were waco and ruby ridge... No one was in danger in those cases except the people being sieged and the kids..

If the people being seiged are shooting randomly and you can't evacuate or make safe the neighborhood then you need to maybe take a few more chances with the childrens lves in order to take out the bad guy.

In the ruby ridge and waco examples they were isolated and of no danger to the population and the government used deadly force in a careless and unnecessary way that accomplished nothing but the deaths of innocents.

lazs

[rshubert]

Originally posted by lazs2
I blame the much lower recruitment requirements and the getting away from .357 revolvers because all the women and cops freightened of guns couldn't handle em.

lazs

How do the .357 magnum wheelguns figure into it?  Most cops I shoot with can't hit their bellybutton with both hands using ANY pistol.

I think the original poster has it right, maybe for the wrong reasons.  Dude gets all coked up, does some really stupid stuff, and gets put down by the cops.  They don't use "surgical" techniques, the situation obviously got WAAAAY out of control, and an innocent was killed.  It's very sad, and not fair to the little girl, but I can't see where one can really blame anybody but Senor Pena.