Who is to blame?

[crowMAW]

Originally posted by Sandman
These cops have wives, kids, families.

They aren't going to jeapordize the welfare of their own one bit more than necessary.

In the big scheme of things, their lives are more important than the life of a mere child. They have responsibilities to uphold.

So, does this mean that firefighters should sit and wait till it is completely safe to enter a building rather than try to rescue people trapped inside while it is burning?  Sorry, but cops choose to enter a dangerous line of work to protect the innocent from criminals.  If they are doing it otherwise...they need to get a different job.  I don't want people with that mentality in that job so that they might kill my innocent daughter in order to stop a perp and call her death regrettible but justified.

I could accept if they killed the hostage to protect other innocent people from harm.  But they had been in negociations with this person for 2+ hours...you cannot tell me that the area had not been quardend off and that the danger was limited in scope. (so Gunslinger, your strawman of a bystander getting shot is moot).  But in this case they shot the innocent victim who happened to be in the way of them protecting themselves from the perp.  

That is what is untenable...and yes Hangtime, the driver would be at equally at fault if he had opportunity to avoid running the bundle over.  In this case, what would have been the risk to keeping the area clear and waiting Pena out?  What is the worst that would have happend?  Perhaps he would have murdered his child and killed himself...but there would have been the possibility that the outcome would have been different.

And I agree with Nirvana...I would have looked at the cops who put their own lives at risk to succesfully disarm that guy as heros...just as I see the firefighters who lost their lives trying to save innocent victims in the World Trade Center as heros.  But these LAPD took the easy way--just shoot'em both--and I don't see that as heroic or brave...just pathetic.

And Gunslinger...I don't give a rat's behind for the perp in this case, but as 2bighorn said, you don't seem to have much remorse that the child died (nor you Sand).  So let me ask you both...if it had been your child that this guy was holding hostage...would you have gone up to the cops afterwards and patted them on the back saying, "WTG, you got the scum kiddnapping my kid.  And I completely understand that you had to kill my kid to do it...that's cool with me so long as you killed that scum perp."

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by crowMAW
So, does this mean that firefighters should sit and wait till it is completely safe to enter a building rather than try to rescue people trapped inside while it is burning?  Sorry, but cops choose to enter a dangerous line of work to protect the innocent from criminals.  If they are doing it otherwise...they need to get a different job.  I don't want people with that mentality in that job so that they might kill my innocent daughter in order to stop a perp and call her death regrettible but justified.

I could accept if they killed the hostage to protect other innocent people from harm.  But they had been in negociations with this person for 2+ hours...you cannot tell me that the area had not been quardend off and that the danger was limited in scope. (so Gunslinger, your strawman of a bystander getting shot is moot).  But in this case they shot the innocent victim who happened to be in the way of them protecting themselves from the perp.  

That is what is untenable...and yes Hangtime, the driver would be at equally at fault if he had opportunity to avoid running the bundle over.  In this case, what would have been the risk to keeping the area clear and waiting Pena out?  What is the worst that would have happend?  Perhaps he would have murdered his child and killed himself...but there would have been the possibility that the outcome would have been different.

And I agree with Nirvana...I would have looked at the cops who put their own lives at risk to succesfully disarm that guy as heros...just as I see the firefighters who lost their lives trying to save innocent victims in the World Trade Center as heros.  But these LAPD took the easy way--just shoot'em both--and I don't see that as heroic or brave...just pathetic.

And Gunslinger...I don't give a rat's behind for the perp in this case, but as 2bighorn said, you don't seem to have much remorse that the child died (nor you Sand).  So let me ask you both...if it had been your child that this guy was holding hostage...would you have gone up to the cops afterwards and patted them on the back saying, "WTG, you got the scum kiddnapping my kid.  And I completely understand that you had to kill my kid to do it...that's cool with me so long as you killed that scum perp."

after having read the police report......and if it was my kid.....I would still blame the perp.  It's a fine line in control of a situation like this and loss of control.

what you don't realize is that fire fighters and cops are no good at their jobs if they are dead.  Yes they take risks and put there lives on the line but them getting killed for nothing does no one any good.  Dont tell me I don't hold any remorse for the kid.  I have children and don't know what I'd do if I lost one.  What I don't feel sorry for is the community and in some cases the family of the child.  While not culpable in THIS situation they could have probably prevented a known drug addict from these kids.

Keep blaming the cops though if it makes you feel better.

[Sandman]

You make it sound as if a firefighter or police officer's life is forfeit simply because they chose a dangerous line of work.

All those officers that were around the perp were innocent as well. People always tend to get their underwear in a bunch if a young child gets killed. Yeah, it's tragic, but IMHO it's a whole helluva lot worse if someone's father or mother dies.

This isn't about remorse. It's about establishing blame. Some would blame the police. I sure as hell don't. The full blame belongs to the bellybutton clown that used his own child as a shield. He made that choice, not the police.

Same goes for Waco. Those clowns made that choice as well.

[crowMAW]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
what you don't realize is that fire fighters and cops are no good at their jobs if they are dead.  Yes they take risks and put there lives on the line but them getting killed for nothing does no one any good.

Seems to me they are just as ineffective in their jobs if they aren't willing to do what it takes to rescue an innocent person from the hands of a criminal or a burning building.  A cop's job is to protect people from criminals...arrest or justified deadly force is a tool to that end.  A firefighter's job is to prevent loss of life in case of fire...putting the fire out is a means to that end.

And I don't see how saving the life of a toddler, or any other person, is "for nothing".  I certainly don't see that the firefighters who died in the World Trade Center did so for nothing.  They were heros because they put their life on the line--and ultimately gave that life--in the attempt to save innocent people.

Sand...I don't see that their lives are forfiet.  I am not saying that cops or firefighters should be sent into potentially leathal situations without all the protection we can provide.  But if they are not willing to recognize that they may die while protecting innocent lives and if they are not willing to put their lives on the line to protect the innocent then they need to find different work.

The cops are not innocent bystanders.  They have chosen to place themselves in dangerous situations (albiet, not of their making) in order to protect the innocent.  The hostage did not have that choice...she was innocent.

I don't blame the police for the situation...that was caused by Pena.  But I do blame the cops for poor decision making that led to the death of an innocent victim that they should have been there to protect.  There were other options...the cops made a poor choice.  In a hostage situation, it seems to me, that the #1 concern should be to save the hostage...and from that perspective the LAPD failed miserably.

[Maverick]

Did any of you armchair street tactical freaking mental giants think that dear old dad was just standing still and potting shots off? Is it not possible that his movements put the kid in the way of a shot that was being taken from a distance. All it takes is a few degrees of movement to swing the kid into the path of what a fraction of a second before was a good take down shot. In a fluid tactical situation like a real hot firefight things don't happen like a staged scene out of TV land and some of you really have no idea about that.

Crowmaw you really should go join a department and get a clue as you certainly don't have one from your posts. Find out what it really is like before you start dictating tactical operations from the safety of your living room chair.

The one person who had the absolute control to save that kids life was the father. This is another example of the good drugs do to individuals and their families. All he had to do was put the child down along with the weapon and walk out. He'd be detoxing in jail right now and the kid might be able to detox as well.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by Maverick
Did any of you armchair street tactical freaking mental giants think that dear old dad was just standing still and potting shots off? Is it not possible that his movements put the kid in the way of a shot that was being taken from a distance. All it takes is a few degrees of movement to swing the kid into the path of what a fraction of a second before was a good take down shot. In a fluid tactical situation like a real hot firefight things don't happen like a staged scene out of TV land and some of you really have no idea about that.

Crowmaw you really should go join a department and get a clue as you certainly don't have one from your posts. Find out what it really is like before you start dictating tactical operations from the safety of your living room chair.

The one person who had the absolute control to save that kids life was the father. This is another example of the good drugs do to individuals and their families. All he had to do was put the child down along with the weapon and walk out. He'd be detoxing in jail right now and the kid might be able to detox as well.

yet another person that gets it.  Things go wrong 1 inch 1 less kt of wind and all of them would have been heros...

well except maybe the community.

[crowMAW]

Originally posted by Maverick
Crowmaw you really should go join a department and get a clue as you certainly don't have one from your posts. Find out what it really is like before you start dictating tactical operations from the safety of your living room chair.

So you are telling me that the option of 'wait him out" was impossible...does not seem to take a tactical operations guru to figure that one out.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by crowMAW
So you are telling me that the option of 'wait him out" was impossible...does not seem to take a tactical operations guru to figure that one out.

Ummm YEA that's what we've been saying.  That's exactly what they were doing for 2 1/2 hours before he came out guns blazing.  Why don't you do yourself a favor and actually read the police report.

[Raider179]

This guy holds his child in front of him and shoots rounds at the cops and there is a "debate" on whether it's justified? Are you kidding me? Sorry I feel bad for the baby, but the criminal made that situation and is the only one responsible for it. As someone else said, those cops will live with that for the rest of their life. It's a fine line our law enforcement walks and we ask them to risk their lives for the betterment of our society, to even question them in a situation where they were fired upon is ridiculous. 1 baby versus the lives of how many officers? How many bystanders? It's a shame and a sad event but in no way are those officers to blame. They have little babies at home too. to the men in blue

[crowMAW]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
Ummm YEA that's what we've been saying.  That's exactly what they were doing for 2 1/2 hours before he came out guns blazing.  Why don't you do yourself a favor and actually read the police report.

How long would you be willing to wait to save one of your kids, Gun?  15 min enough for you?  Or would you be willing to wait days just on the possibility of saving your son's life?

BTW, how 'bout posting a link to the offical police report.  Based on the LAPD press release  it sounds like the man was contained in a cordoned-off area and the SWAT team pursued him into the building. The SWAT officer was wounded while entering the building in pursuit of Pena. I saw nothing about the use of non-leathal methods, such as tear gas, to subdue him.  From the start the LAPD used deadly force even though there was a high risk of killing the hostage.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by crowMAW
How long would you be willing to wait to save one of your kids, Gun?  15 min enough for you?  Or would you be willing to wait days just on the possibility of saving your son's life?

BTW, how 'bout posting a link to the offical police report.  Based on the LAPD press release  it sounds like the man was contained in a cordoned-off area and the SWAT team pursued him into the building. The SWAT officer was wounded while entering the building in pursuit of Pena. I saw nothing about the use of non-leathal methods, such as tear gas, to subdue him.  From the start the LAPD used deadly force even though there was a high risk of killing the hostage.

well it looks like they tried for at least 2 1/2 hours before control was lost.  I guessing your a tactical expert in the area and were on scene to be able to render such judgment.

[crowMAW]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
well it looks like they tried for at least 2 1/2 hours before control was lost.  I guessing your a tactical expert in the area and were on scene to be able to render such judgment.

Where's that link to the offical police report?

And just reading the LAPD press release it looks like the SWAT team lost control of themselves.  They opened fire as Pena appeared to be going for his weapon.  He retreated into the building while firing back.  The SWAT team pursued rather than retreating to safety to wait him out.  The SWAT officer was shot in the shoulder while Pena was firing as he was fleeing and the officers were pursuing into the building.

I'm not a tactical expert, but I am an expert in decision management having taught the subject at a university as well as to professionals, including senior law enforcement officers (and I practice what I teach while mentoring my managers so that we make good decisions for our company and don't make decisions that lead us to an FEC investigation and jail).  In this situation the LAPD needed to be thinking about mission, actions, expected outcomes, and consequences.  What was their primary mission.  Was it to: 1) save the hostage; or 2) neutralize the perp.  If it was 2, then I would say that they were already going down the wrong path.  #2 can be a secondary objective, but not the mission...otherwise, the outcome is exactly what happened; which we all agree was not optimal.

They also needed to think about the actions that would effectively acheive the mission.  If the action they choose is for 11 of them to opened fire on the perp while he is holding the hostage in his arms, what expected outcome would they predict?  Would it be that all their bullets would land perfectly in center mass of the perp?  What consequences would be realized if the expected outcome is that some of those bullets would miss the perp? Would that endanger the mission of saving the hostage?

That's a lot of stuff to think about.  But I would expect that cops that end up on the SWAT team can handle it.  If not, they are the wrong sort to be working hostage situations.

[BUG_EAF322]

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[Maverick]

Crowmaw,

The decision to wait out or not depends on the negotiations. I doubt you were present to analyze or to give the benefit of your tactical and hostage negotiation expertise to the negotiator at the scene.

As to the rest of your comments. It's very easy to sit back and armchair quarterback from the easy chair in a safe secure "ivory tower" location without the added stress of a nutbag high on drugs and already obviously hostile as he opened fire on arriving officers. Clue for you, it's way different in the real world where things happen that you cannot control. Perhaps something like dear old dad telling the negotiator that he's through talking and he's going to kill the kid and himself as soon as he hangs up. Yep waiting would be real productive there. I'd just about put money that that was what happened.

If you had any experiance you would know that there won't be any link to a "police report" as it is going to be a situation that is litigated. As such, the complete reports including all suplementary reports made by all involved in the situation will not be released except through "discovery" on the court motion from the plaintiffs. All Officers involved will also have been instructed to refrain from comments to anyone outside of court and or deposition until the case is through litigation. Pretty standard even for non Law Enforcement.

[BUG_EAF322]

Just look at the pic of that kid.

i would rather die than that kid should die
young life is always more important than ur own adult life

no matter what

guess the swat team wanted to be home before 17:00


sigh